Anonymous said...
"I've never thought about what a church should look like in these times. What should they be doing? What should they be achieving?
All I know is that there is a preacher, and a building in todays church model."
Tuesday, April 26, 2016 9:24:00 AM
To answer the question, "What should a church look like" we need to take a look at what the church should not look like. Churches are run by men. It doesn't really matter what you call them: Pastor, Bishop, Elder, Apostle, Father, etc. These titles are used as distinctions between 'mere' members and those who are considered more prominent in the church; but they are titles that are pinned upon them by other men, not God. There were not any super spiritual celebrities gallivanting around with glee clubs ogling over their every word and deed in the early church. The leaders of the true New Testament church were approachable and fellow workers laboring in the work of Christ. Paul referred to himself as "least of all saints". Paul referred to Timothy as a brother and fellow laborer. John referred to himself as "your brother and companion in tribulation. Jesus said: "I call you not servants....but I have called you friends." [John 15:15 here] What kind of leader is leading your church? Can you imagine going up to Davis and calling him Brother Rodger, or calling Kekel, Brother Mike? They want you to inflate their egos by calling them by the titles that they have chosen unto themselves.
A good church will be led by a good man. Who do you want to trust to lead you to eternal life? A Huckster? Is a good church supposed to be led by a man that is greedy of filthy lucre?
Strong's Concordance has this short definition for filthy lucre:
Eager for base gain, greedy for money.
Scriptures: 1 Ti 3:3, 1 Ti 3:8, Tit 1:7, 1 Pe 5:2 (Desktop Computer Users can hover over each of these scripture references and to read the full verse. Mobile Users can see them by clicking here.)
These scriptures tell you what the leaders of the church should and should not be doing. If the leader of your church or cult is getting rich off the gospel, you might want to follow a different leader. If your 'Pastor' wants you to give him 10% of your money but doesn't want to explain where your money is going, you might want to find another "Pastor". Don't blindly believe or accept that it's going back into the work of the Lord. Ask that huckster where the upper echelon cult leaders got the money to live in mansions and drive expensive luxury and sports cars, tour the country in expensive Recreational Vehicles and go on all expense paid vacations globe-trotting around the world. Turn on your brains and read your bibles if you claim to be a bible believing Christian. It's never too late to escape the cult.
While you are reading the scripture references listed above, take a look at the other requirements for church leadership: "Not doubletongued"-- What does that mean? Strong's definition:
Double speech, saying one thing to one person and another to another person (with the intent to deceive). Otherwise known as Double Standards.
If your cult leader says: "I'm not a match maker" and then he has men line up to ask him permission if they can talk with a single woman "on the wall" that is a good example of someone who has a forked, oops, I mean double tongue.
If your cult leader removes one man from being the pastor of a church because of adultery, but promotes another man after being caught at a whore house, (not to mention all of the adultery the cult leader himself has been guilty of), this is a double standard and that cult leader has a double or forked tongue.
If your cult leader says: "Don't invite the poor to church, we are not running a soup kitchen" after saying "We are a church of all Nations, Non-denominational and everyone is welcome", He is a money grubber and only wants people that can support the life styles of lazy puppeteers like himself to attend church.
If your cult leader rails on someone else saying: "He loves a house more than God" while he himself lives in a million dollar mansion with gates all around it and an intercom to screen fleeced flock members from seeking counsel, you might need to find a new church. Are there not enough scriptures in the bible warning you to steer clear of hypocrites?
If your cult leader 'adopts' a daughter in the Philippines, and then rails against men and women having children because they hinder the work of the Lord, and this causes scores of men to surgically neuter themselves is this not being double tongued?
If your cult leader charges you money to rent a building that has been paid off for years, while the cult leaders profit off of the financial hardships of your congregation, they are double standard hypocrites and given to usury. If they require your congregation to give money to an escrow fund that is designated for church repairs and improvements, but then tell you to take up an offering to fix the church so they can later zero out that escrow fund with no accountability to the ones who gave the money, you are not even in a church, you are in a cult that is being run by shady business partners who are running a big time scam under the guise of being a non profit holiness religious organization.
If your new cult leader says, "Those were never rules, just policies." to dismiss the abuse and marginalize those whose lives have been devastated, he is a double tongued, double standard hypocrite and huckster, who is running a big scam and laughing at you all the way to the bank.
The husband of one wife, rulers of their own house, having their children under subjection:
If your cult leader encourages you to get a divorce and drives wedges between families, he is encouraging adultery. Why would he do this? If your cult leader can't even lead his own son to Christ, while lavishing expensive gifts upon him with your tithe dollars, why would you want him teaching you how to raise your kids? This is not a healthy environment to raise children. How many people in your church have divorced, remarried someone else in your church/cult, then divorced again and remarried someone else in your church/cult? Some ntcc'rs have done this 4 times; and that's just the ones we know about. Come on! Are the scales falling from your eyes yet?
How many of us were cheated out of having families? How many men and women were discouraged from having children? How many were discouraged from seeking higher education? How many were railed against for seeking a career or wanting to own their own home or desiring to be healthy and exercise? How many were preached down to about dressing a certain way? How many men were blasted for wearing jeans, shorts or having facial hair? How many women were belittled and humiliated for wearing ear rings while the congregation was fleeced for money to buy their cult leader a Rolex watch or a diamond pinky ring?
Is this what a church should look like? This is exactly what the ntcc looks like. You are better off not going to a church than attending church with a bunch of double tongued snakes.
If you do find a healthy church it will most likely be one whose ministers are servants of all, rather than lords over all. If any money is collected it won't be used to purchase million dollar recreational vehicles, quarter million dollar sports cars, and multi-million dollar real estate ventures.
What we write might offend many churches because there are many so called churches that exist for the wrong reasons. Is there such a thing as a perfect church? Probably not, but if a group of people get together to worship God and they can do this without some huckster trying to make merchandise of them, then they can be honest and real; but if there is any perfection, it is in Christ. The ntcc and other cults would teach its followers to "Be perfect as Christ is perfect", and us cult members would actually think that perfection was something that we could obtain by our own works. I don't care how hard you try to be perfect, you'll never be perfect. We are all flawed and the only thing perfect about us is the love that God bestows on us.
In 2 Cor 12:9 Paul said: "And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me." [bold highlights added by DNA]
So if it is possible to be perfect, it's not a result of our efforts to live perfectly. We believe it's a heart thing. In a prayer of repentance David asked of the Lord, "Create in me a clean heart, Oh God, and renew a right spirit within me". David was not perfect; but later, after he was dead and gone, the Author of Kings made this comparison of David and Solomon:
"For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father." 1 Kings 11:4
The ntcc cult leaders could be saved if they would acknowledge their own weaknesses and sins, stop oppressing the people of God, turn from their whoredoms and idolatry and stop making merchandise of the people of God. But they refuse to admit any wrong doing. They are narcissistic by nature; and they have set themselves up as idols to be worshiped by their followers.
There are so many false teachers, false prophets, phony ministers, money making hucksters and lying hood winkers in the church world today it's hard to tell what is real from what is fake. The bible however is pretty clear about it. If you are looking for contradictions in the bible you might find them among scriptures that are taken out of context or not fully understood. You can wrestle with the scriptures and make them out to be controversial; or you can take the things that are plain and simple to be understood for what they actually say. If you want to know what a church should look like, read the New Testament. Most of the ultimatums are attached to rejecting Christ rather than living by rules. Most of the emphasis is placed on loving God, loving your neighbor as yourself and having love one towards another. If you want to strain at gnats and swallow camels you can do that all day long. That's what cults do; and that's what the ntcc does. That's what the atheists and agnostics do. Wash your hands before you eat, don't heal on the Sabbath day, pay tithe, make loud and drawn out public prayers, dress this way or that way.
We are definitely not experts on where to find a good church but we believe that there will always be a remnant of people who desire to live for God. Many people fall into the trap of thinking they have to follow a man or a program. It would be nice if you can walk into any church in your town and worship God. Try it. Go to each one and ask their pastor what doctrine makes them different from all the other churches in your town or city. They all believe in different doctrines and they all believe that their way is right. You might have a better chance winning a million dollars off of a scratch ticket than you would finding a good church. But if you feel like your salvation depends on following another man make sure you ask questions and demand straight answers. Find out if it's a church or a money making scam. Where does the money go? Are they transparent? Will they show you the books or some type of public record of where the money goes? Or do they get offended and avoid those types of questions. Google your church leaders and find out if there are multitudes of outraged people that have suffered due to their oppression. Find out if there are scandals that they tried to cover up. Who do they reach out to? Those who have the ability to pay tithe or those who don't, or both? Are they respecters of persons? If you find a good church or even a halfway decent church, let us know, we would love to hear all about it.
Jesus said:
"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." Mat 7:15
"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many." Mat 24:11
"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Mat 24:24
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A good church will be led by a good man. Who do you want to trust to lead you to eternal life? A Huckster? Is a good church supposed to be led by a man that is greedy of filthy lucre?
Strong's Concordance has this short definition for filthy lucre:
Eager for base gain, greedy for money.
Scriptures: 1 Ti 3:3, 1 Ti 3:8, Tit 1:7, 1 Pe 5:2 (Desktop Computer Users can hover over each of these scripture references and to read the full verse. Mobile Users can see them by clicking here.)
These scriptures tell you what the leaders of the church should and should not be doing. If the leader of your church or cult is getting rich off the gospel, you might want to follow a different leader. If your 'Pastor' wants you to give him 10% of your money but doesn't want to explain where your money is going, you might want to find another "Pastor". Don't blindly believe or accept that it's going back into the work of the Lord. Ask that huckster where the upper echelon cult leaders got the money to live in mansions and drive expensive luxury and sports cars, tour the country in expensive Recreational Vehicles and go on all expense paid vacations globe-trotting around the world. Turn on your brains and read your bibles if you claim to be a bible believing Christian. It's never too late to escape the cult.
While you are reading the scripture references listed above, take a look at the other requirements for church leadership: "Not doubletongued"-- What does that mean? Strong's definition:
Double speech, saying one thing to one person and another to another person (with the intent to deceive). Otherwise known as Double Standards.
If your cult leader says: "I'm not a match maker" and then he has men line up to ask him permission if they can talk with a single woman "on the wall" that is a good example of someone who has a forked, oops, I mean double tongue.
If your cult leader removes one man from being the pastor of a church because of adultery, but promotes another man after being caught at a whore house, (not to mention all of the adultery the cult leader himself has been guilty of), this is a double standard and that cult leader has a double or forked tongue.
If your cult leader says: "Don't invite the poor to church, we are not running a soup kitchen" after saying "We are a church of all Nations, Non-denominational and everyone is welcome", He is a money grubber and only wants people that can support the life styles of lazy puppeteers like himself to attend church.
If your cult leader rails on someone else saying: "He loves a house more than God" while he himself lives in a million dollar mansion with gates all around it and an intercom to screen fleeced flock members from seeking counsel, you might need to find a new church. Are there not enough scriptures in the bible warning you to steer clear of hypocrites?
If your cult leader 'adopts' a daughter in the Philippines, and then rails against men and women having children because they hinder the work of the Lord, and this causes scores of men to surgically neuter themselves is this not being double tongued?
If your cult leader charges you money to rent a building that has been paid off for years, while the cult leaders profit off of the financial hardships of your congregation, they are double standard hypocrites and given to usury. If they require your congregation to give money to an escrow fund that is designated for church repairs and improvements, but then tell you to take up an offering to fix the church so they can later zero out that escrow fund with no accountability to the ones who gave the money, you are not even in a church, you are in a cult that is being run by shady business partners who are running a big time scam under the guise of being a non profit holiness religious organization.
If your new cult leader says, "Those were never rules, just policies." to dismiss the abuse and marginalize those whose lives have been devastated, he is a double tongued, double standard hypocrite and huckster, who is running a big scam and laughing at you all the way to the bank.
The husband of one wife, rulers of their own house, having their children under subjection:
If your cult leader encourages you to get a divorce and drives wedges between families, he is encouraging adultery. Why would he do this? If your cult leader can't even lead his own son to Christ, while lavishing expensive gifts upon him with your tithe dollars, why would you want him teaching you how to raise your kids? This is not a healthy environment to raise children. How many people in your church have divorced, remarried someone else in your church/cult, then divorced again and remarried someone else in your church/cult? Some ntcc'rs have done this 4 times; and that's just the ones we know about. Come on! Are the scales falling from your eyes yet?
How many of us were cheated out of having families? How many men and women were discouraged from having children? How many were discouraged from seeking higher education? How many were railed against for seeking a career or wanting to own their own home or desiring to be healthy and exercise? How many were preached down to about dressing a certain way? How many men were blasted for wearing jeans, shorts or having facial hair? How many women were belittled and humiliated for wearing ear rings while the congregation was fleeced for money to buy their cult leader a Rolex watch or a diamond pinky ring?
Is this what a church should look like? This is exactly what the ntcc looks like. You are better off not going to a church than attending church with a bunch of double tongued snakes.
If you do find a healthy church it will most likely be one whose ministers are servants of all, rather than lords over all. If any money is collected it won't be used to purchase million dollar recreational vehicles, quarter million dollar sports cars, and multi-million dollar real estate ventures.
What we write might offend many churches because there are many so called churches that exist for the wrong reasons. Is there such a thing as a perfect church? Probably not, but if a group of people get together to worship God and they can do this without some huckster trying to make merchandise of them, then they can be honest and real; but if there is any perfection, it is in Christ. The ntcc and other cults would teach its followers to "Be perfect as Christ is perfect", and us cult members would actually think that perfection was something that we could obtain by our own works. I don't care how hard you try to be perfect, you'll never be perfect. We are all flawed and the only thing perfect about us is the love that God bestows on us.
In 2 Cor 12:9 Paul said: "And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me." [bold highlights added by DNA]
So if it is possible to be perfect, it's not a result of our efforts to live perfectly. We believe it's a heart thing. In a prayer of repentance David asked of the Lord, "Create in me a clean heart, Oh God, and renew a right spirit within me". David was not perfect; but later, after he was dead and gone, the Author of Kings made this comparison of David and Solomon:
"For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father." 1 Kings 11:4
Now David made mistakes. He was not perfect. He committed adultery and had a righteous man killed to hide his sin. But David knew how to repent; and this is what made his heart perfect. In spite of every wrong thing he did, he turned to God and asked forgiveness. He also confessed his sins, and admitted to his wrong doing, and he was made perfect in weakness, not by his own works, but by God's mercy and grace.
The ntcc cult leaders create a false image of perfection which they never live up to; neither do they make things right with the people that they sin against nor with God. They never admit to any wrong doing. Ashmore never admits to any wrong doing. Davis could not remember the last time he sinned, but quite a few of his victims sure did.
Now I will tell you straight up that I know that I'm not perfect. My whole life has been like a roller coaster ride and my failures and sins would definitely out-weigh my righteousness if it were not for God's mercy and love. But out of the chaos and all of the ups and downs there has been one constant, and that is God's love; and that love extends to all mankind. If there is any perfection in my heart whatsoever, it comes from God. I am weak; and I struggle all the time. In the midst of the struggle there are times of peace and an assurance that God is love. A broken heart can be made perfect.
Psa 34:18 The LORD [is] nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
Psa 34:18 The LORD [is] nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
Life can be a struggle sometimes. No matter what you have or don't have there is a constant war going on in our lives. Throughout time God has always been there when people turn to him. So many times in the Old Testament prophets would share God's mercy with the people. God wanted these people to open their hearts to Him. Even though they had worshiped other gods, God said if they would turn to Him that He would remember their sin no more. That is the way that it has always been with God. If you worship God all your life and than decide to turn your heart away from Him, God will not remember the good. If you have ignored God all of your life and you choose to open your heart to God, He will remember your sin no more. This is the way it is throughout the bible. This is how God deals with people.
Eze 18:26 When a righteous [man] turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked [man] turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
Eze 18:28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Now we have the New Testament which replaced the Old Testament when Jesus died and was resurrected. What all of the laws of the Old Testament to include tithe, could not do, the blood of Jesus can do. It's that simple.
Eze 18:26 When a righteous [man] turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked [man] turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
Eze 18:28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
The River by Jordan Feliz on YouTube
There are so many false teachers, false prophets, phony ministers, money making hucksters and lying hood winkers in the church world today it's hard to tell what is real from what is fake. The bible however is pretty clear about it. If you are looking for contradictions in the bible you might find them among scriptures that are taken out of context or not fully understood. You can wrestle with the scriptures and make them out to be controversial; or you can take the things that are plain and simple to be understood for what they actually say. If you want to know what a church should look like, read the New Testament. Most of the ultimatums are attached to rejecting Christ rather than living by rules. Most of the emphasis is placed on loving God, loving your neighbor as yourself and having love one towards another. If you want to strain at gnats and swallow camels you can do that all day long. That's what cults do; and that's what the ntcc does. That's what the atheists and agnostics do. Wash your hands before you eat, don't heal on the Sabbath day, pay tithe, make loud and drawn out public prayers, dress this way or that way.
We are definitely not experts on where to find a good church but we believe that there will always be a remnant of people who desire to live for God. Many people fall into the trap of thinking they have to follow a man or a program. It would be nice if you can walk into any church in your town and worship God. Try it. Go to each one and ask their pastor what doctrine makes them different from all the other churches in your town or city. They all believe in different doctrines and they all believe that their way is right. You might have a better chance winning a million dollars off of a scratch ticket than you would finding a good church. But if you feel like your salvation depends on following another man make sure you ask questions and demand straight answers. Find out if it's a church or a money making scam. Where does the money go? Are they transparent? Will they show you the books or some type of public record of where the money goes? Or do they get offended and avoid those types of questions. Google your church leaders and find out if there are multitudes of outraged people that have suffered due to their oppression. Find out if there are scandals that they tried to cover up. Who do they reach out to? Those who have the ability to pay tithe or those who don't, or both? Are they respecters of persons? If you find a good church or even a halfway decent church, let us know, we would love to hear all about it.
Jesus said:
"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." Mat 7:15
"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many." Mat 24:11
"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Mat 24:24
32 comments:
I'd go out of my way to be disrespectful to someone who put DR. PHD in front of their name instead of just Pastor or REV...
That drives me crazy.
I get the idea that we are to help the poor (to what extant I have no idea). I get the idea that we are to marry other Christians (how equally yolked must you be). I understand we should pray (for what and when and how much).
This could go on forever. There just doesn't appear to be a good example out there. Had the faith been corrupted beyond repair?
Anonymous said:
"There just doesn't appear to be a good example out there. Had the faith been corrupted beyond repair?"
DNA said:
I don't think faith itself has been corrupted, but cults like the ntcc have done their best to corrupt peoples minds and turn people away from their faith. Faith is between you and God. Preachers have tried to insert themselves into your relationship with God so that they can make money off of your faith. Helping the poor, praying and determining how equally yoked you must be are principles that have been hijacked by the ntcc. This is what cults do. Cult leaders insert themselves into the equation and manipulate these principals in a way that benefits themselves. They will tell you that the best thing you can do for the poor is to pray for them. "Be ye warmed and filled". This frees up your wallet so you can give more money to them. Prayer is encouraged but all of the answers have to fall into the parameters of what the cult leader dictates is acceptable. The cult leader wants to insert himself into your relationships also. They feel that you can't choose your own wife, because you aren't spiritual enough. You need a "pastor" to help you make this decision.
The ntcc is indeed a cult. When a cult leader influences dozens of preachers to get snipped, it's a cult for sure. There are a lot of churches that are not as extreme as the ntcc. They all have their own programs and want you to believe that their way is better than the ways of the church down the street. Why can't a person be a Christian without paying some preacher? They have corrupted people. They have corrupted the image of what a church should be. But they haven't corrupted God or Christianity. All they can do is paint a picture of what they want you to believe. Don't let them hijack your faith. It's between you and God, not some money grubbing preacher.
If the ntcc is the Great whore, what does that make Ashmore? We got one little excerpt sent to us from Ashmore's private blog, telling people to flee from the whore, (ntcc). If the ntcc was the whore and Ashmore served them faithfully for over four decades, what does that say about him? He was a chief collaborator in all of the whoredoms of the ntcc. Was he any different from any of the whore's pimps?
It makes him an enormous pimp.
Mike
"Those were never rules, just policies."
Now that's a slap in the face. I feel for those suffering from battered wife syndrome in this church. You'd have to be to put up with their crap.
After leaving NTCC what is the best church to go to? Or is it better to just be Christian and not go to any church at all?
Rules=Policy
Synonyms for policy according to definition.com:
1. strategy, principle, rule. 4. acumen, astuteness, skill, art.
I suppose it's those policies/rules that send up red flags on what a church shouldn't look like.
I'm thinking about "Church Hopping" this summer just to get a feel of the rules and policies that churches place on members. But I refuse to go to a Catholic Church... I don't want to fall asleep.
My opinion is its healthy for a christian to be in fellowship at the local level. The house church movement probably has a structure that most resembles a new testament model. That said it can have its own issues. Ive been part of 4 churches since leaving NTCC. Im looking for domething that puts people first in their actions and words, that uplifts and edifies. One that is true about its faults and what it does right. Doesnt have to be perfect, id ruin it by joining it. One that focuses on the major points of the bible and not focused on devisive details that scripture is less than clear on.
Eric
Anonymous said...
Rules=Policy
Synonyms for policy according to definition.com:
1. strategy, principle, rule. 4. acumen, astuteness, skill, art.
DNA said:
Policies and rules are one in the same. Kekel was lying to cover up the many accusations of double standards. Definition.com pretty much sums it all up. Another word for policy is rule. Kekel thinks people are stupid. These things were written by Kekel, not for us but for the dumbed down mob of ntcc sheeple that make Kekel rich for the privilege of being lorded over by him.
Policies, rules, laws, commandments and ultimatums all were used to control people. You can give a pig a bath and tie a pretty bow around his neck but as soon as he gets a chance, he will run straight to the mud hole to wallow in the mire. He still is a pig. Kekel was publicly outed on Chief's blog for his double standards and hypocrisy. Chief publicly exposed Kekel for allowing Grant to participate in sports and wear lascivious clothing while other kids were expected to look like complete and total idiots while dressing like Pilgrims and abstaining from any fun athletic events. Kekel came out on his blog with a damage control campaign that shifted the blame for the strict upbringing of ntcc children from the cult leaders to the ntcc cult members.
It's your fault that you brought up your children, isolating them from normalcy. You were a bunch of stupid brainwashed idiots for misinterpreting the policies as rules and forcing your children to actually do the things that Davis the Decepticon taught.
Kekel wanted Grant to be raised like a "normal" kid that does normal things so he blatantly disregarded his Father in Law's teachings and afforded Grant a normal childhood while you spent your tithe dollars putting him through an expensive private school called the Charles Wright Academy.
The Vasectomy debacle was another instance of cult control. Davis preached that children hindered the work of the Lord and that you couldn't be a Serviceman's Home director if you had children, even though there were several "exceptions" to that rule or policy. So a bunch of grown adult men who wanted to please God and Davis went and had their manhood operated on to please Davis who they considered to be the Man of Gawd. Davis never stopped any of them or discouraged this practice. This was another double standard. Davis adopted Tanya, (wink, wink), who hindered the work of the Lord greatly.
What a bunch of back stabbing and lying hypocrites. We were stupid for following this bunch of cult leaders. We had to shut our brains completely off and ignore all of this to be "good" Christians.
Unknown said:
"My opinion is its healthy for a christian to be in fellowship at the local level. The house church movement probably has a structure that most resembles a new testament model."
DNA said:
I agree with you as long as you don't join up with a bunch of snakes. Sometimes people feel that it is so important to join a group that they become part of something that does more harm than good. We do however believe in freedom and if going to a local church is something that helps a person than it's great for that person. Out of curiosity, what was it that made you want to leave the first three churches to attend a fourth one? I personally haven't been blessed with that kind of patience and understanding to attend that many churches to find a good one. I've been to 2 or three different churches and they are pretty much all the same. They had a specific doctrine that they taught and everyone else was wrong. I think almost anything is an improvement from the ntcc but its hard to ignore the lack of financial transparency or the kinds of manipulation that you encounter in so many churches. That's just my two cents.
We have visited quite a few. First one we settled in at for about a year because we knew the pastor and it was assembly of God and their doctrine is pretty close to what we knew and believed. We left because of their for tongues and interpretation of tongues. Made a circus out of it. Then we settled in to a Nazarene church. Great group of people. Governed by a local board elected by the church body annually, which I believe is probably the healthiest form for our culture. Then we moved out of state. Started visiting churches settled in to a church for 6 months because I knew the pastor from high school. The structure reminded me too much of NTCC so we moved on.we now attend a large church with a very practical pastor that is a great communicator. Reminds of Ravi Zachariah in his preaching style and values. I dont think there is a one size fits all and there probably shouldnt be. All of the churches weve been a part of were far better than NTCC for whatever their faults are.
Eric
Someone recently sent this link: What a Normal Church looks like It took a while to get around to looking at the site. I'm not sure if I agree with everything, but there is a lot of good material on this website. It compares modern day church with actual New Testament scripture. It is a very good read. If you look at the side bars, there is a section on tithe that is very interesting also. I would say that this model for the New Testament Church is much more in line with the early church and what Jesus actually taught than so much of what you see in other churches where the priority is buildings and paying salaried employees. The Website itself is called Home Church Help, and seems to be a network for people who are tired of all the hypocrisy surrounding the modern church world and it's illusions of entitlement.
Well, Eric, it sounds like it's working for you and that's what is important. I probably look at things a little different, and that's not to say that I'm right and you are wrong. You say that you are attending a large church. I would personally be interested in how much money they paid for their building. How much money is the Pastor making? What kind of car does he drive? Is there transparency and accountability? The reason money concerns me is that it seems to be the root of all evil in most modern churches. Pastors seem to be celebrities more than concerned Shepherds who are servants of all to the paying members of their congregations. How are the poor treated? Who is welcomed? Who is esteemed highly? Who is shunned?
I'm not trying to pick your church apart, because it's possible that it might be a great church with great people. One thing I know is that we have to do what we feel is right for us, and you must do the same. So many people have been burned in the ntcc. We were burned and don't want to be burned again. Attending a group and being part of a program is not so vital to our Christianity that we want to experiment with all of the religious figures in our community. I'm not sure if this deprives us of anything that is spiritually vital to our salvation, but it keeps us from being manipulated by professional hucksters. We appreciate your imput, Eric and wish you the best. We asked for people to chime in on their church experiences and we appreciate that. What we shared is what we feel about the church world and not an indictment against anyone else's faith or church.
When I left the NTCC I went before, I totally left by leaving the state and totally changing my number. I'm now at a completely new a different church(not NTCC) that preaches the true gospel and I'm happy than ever before. And I can find a fine looking woman and have a good relationship with her in peace knowing I don't have an NTCC pastor anymore controlling our relationship like the last one did or try to con me to go to bible school.
Good for you ANON, I hope you get the hottie of your dreams.
Anyone who escapes deserves a celebration.
As far as what a church should look like I don't think there is a clear idea out there. That would mean that maybe the Christian Faith itself is in peril. I look at the huge trend in joining new religions or flat out atheism very concerning. The further away we get from having some formal way of worship seems to have some correlation with the rise of conterfits.
Just an opinion, hopefully I'm wrong.
Because a church orginization conducted themselves horribly doesn't give an excuse to leave God. There are still body of believers out there and always will that are willing to do the will of God. Turning to false religions and atheism is NOT the answer. To do so is so foolish. So yes you are wrong, with all due respects.
I don't think Christian Faith is in peril. It's free for the taking. There are a lot of people who are more busy trying to cause division in the church than there are those who want to unify it. If the Preachers are as concerned about getting people saved and prepared for heaven as they say they are, they wouldn't spend so much time trying to convince everyone that they are the only ones that preach the truth. Paul said: "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;" 2 Tim 4:3. People have itching ears. They treat preachers like they are celebrities and they worship them like idols. Davis and Kekel had their fan clubs. While they were getting rich preaching against every religion known to man, people were wanting more and more. Unfortunately the church world is more interested in being right than getting right. There are people who are sincere and in their hearts they live to please God. These sincere people might belong to a church or they might not. If they love God that is the only requirement to be in "The" Church, God's Church. If you love God, You'll love your neighbor. If you love your neighbor you won't commit adultery with your neighbors wife or husband, you won't molest your neighbors sons or daughters, you won't make merchandise of the people of God, you won't twist the truth and preach ultimatums that are false doctrines like Tithe, you won't be a racist, you won't be a respecter of persons, you won't be cruel to others, you won't ignore those in need and you won't act like the world revolves around you, because it doesn't. There is a true church and Christianity is always going to be available to anyone who wants God. So many people make it more difficult than it has to be. Forbidding people to marry is wrong. The ntcc did this for years to many individuals. We also are happy for Anonymous. Truth be told, people that are free to make their own decisions about their own Christian lives are much more likely to prosper in their faith than the uptight ntcc minister who lords over his flock like a tyrant. It seems like the majority of the uptight Davis emulators have fallen by the wayside and those who are still around only exist to make money off of people who they can manipulate. I agree that when you look at the church world it looks pretty hopeless. New Religions are popping up left and right. True Christians are being murdered by ISIS. We as a nation are doing nothing to prevent these terrorists from entering our own country. Our problems are nothing like the problems in a lot of other countries and yet our churches and our cults are too busy fighting each other to pay attention to anything that really matters. Religion and Politics are divisive. God is love. Hope that doesn't offend anyone, but it's true. Right now Christian faith is the only thing that is not in peril.
anon-
You completely missed my point but that's ok.
D/A
When I say the Christian Faith is in peril I mean as a majority opinion that shapes our culture.
It's been removed from Marriage within just the last few years.
Comedians, News outlets and the like are very successful in making fun of religion in general. It's quite disturbing.
Mike
"but that's ok"
I'll be glad when they retire that old soggy saying
I think this discussion boils down to answering the question of what is Christianity and what is a Christian. And while it is one thing to declare and agree that NTCC is false and harmful it is not so easy a thing to agree on what to replace it with.
I would argue one of the harmful sources of the sickness that is NTCC is a strictly literal interpretation of the Bible. What's ironic to me is, they do attempt a literal understanding and practice but even they reject literalism when to not do so would result in utter foolishness or flagrant law breaking. Or when convenient or expedient to do so.
I mean tell me why countless things are followed to the letter but, for one example, "spare the rod" does not, of course refer to a literal rod. Why not? And thank God they don't use rods... the children suffer enough in that toxic extremist environment.
Said it before and I'll say it again. Literal fundamental extremists in Christianity are the Christian version of Muslim jihadists.
A total rejection of reason and logic takes a toll on a mind. Just look around. A closed mind is a sickness.
Agreed on the closed mind. However, there its a bit of a stretch to compare fundamentalist christianity to muslim jihadist. In that there is harm and manipulation happening in both groups there are similarities. In degree of harm there are no similarities. Murder, terrorism, genital mutiliation, judicial rape. Thankfully these are not the faults we are seeing in Christianity.
I don't think it is a stretch at all. What protects us is the separation of church and state. If fundamentalist Christians had full political power and a theocracy like the Muslims do, I have no doubt we would have a version of Sharia law, censorship and religion based war. Thank God for the Constitution and democracy.
Literal Fundamental Extremists are the Christian version of Muslim Jihadists???
O.K.
Muslim Jihadists killed a boy for Cursing two weeks ago.
Please give an equivalent Christian offence.
Muslims probably crashed a plane last night killing everyone on board.
Please give equivalent.
Muslims raped and killed a rape victim in Pakistan this month.
Please give equivalent.
Mike
And the fundamentalist Christians version of Sharia Law would look like what?
I'm on pins and needles to here this... Go vote for Bernie Sanders you relativist putz!
Trump? That you?
:)
Eric
It's gonna be Yuge
Mike said:
"When I say the Christian Faith is in peril I mean as a majority opinion that shapes our culture."
DNA said:
I did take an opposing view but I definitely understand where you are coming from. I did try to clarify that by saying: "I agree that when you look at the church world it looks pretty hopeless." Sometimes I use the comments of others to jump into a point of view that I'm wanting to discuss.
I definitely see your perspective also. The Libs are doing everything they can to remove God from our culture. I can't believe that the agenda of allowing perverts to use the women's bathroom is being pushed just because they self identify as a woman. They are trying to force this on children now as well in public schools. But don't dare bring a bible to school. They can take God off of our money, out of our marriage vows and out of our schools, and this will definitely cause Christians perilous times, but Christianity itself will continue to thrive.
As far as, "but that's okay" being a soggy expression, that's a new one on me, but that's okay, too.
As far as the fundamentalist argument goes there are two sides of every coin. This takes us back to the topic of this blog post. Right now we are getting into politics and religion which are the two most divisive subjects that exist. My personal opinion is that Christianity itself would not exist if we didn't receive the bible literally. Groups like the ntcc claim to take the bible literally but they add a whole bunch of man made rules and they twist a whole lot of scripture and profit off of the end result. This is how a church becomes a cult.
The ntcc and a lot of "fundamentalists" present doctrine that reflect views that mirror Sharia law. Muslim women can be raped and unless they have 4 male witness that testify on their behalf, it's not rape. Sound familiar? Davis would say that you need two or three witnesses to bring an accusation against a minister. Rape victims in the ntcc are usually children and when their Mothers report it to Olson, they are told to find another church while the pedophile is allowed to remain. Women are required to keep their traps shut in the ntcc. Women have no say in the ministry. Paul said: "I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also."
As far as Christianity being compared with radical Jihadist muslims, I have to agree with Mike. You don't see Christians strapping bombs to their bodies and blowing themselves up to kill women and children. But you do see some pretty whacked out stuff like Jim Jones convincing multitudes to drink poison and kill themselves. My point is that this is not Christianity. The ntcc is not Christianity. They use Christians and they preach Christ crucified, but they do so for a profit. They don't take the bible literally. They don't even believe the bible. They say they do. If they did, they would practice Romans 13:10. "Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." They have created their own law and it doesn't include the kind of love that Jesus showed to the masses. Try not paying your tithe and see how much they love you. Tithe is a doctrine that has been twisted and preached by ntcc preachers for decades. It's not a literal principal taken from the bible. If it were, they would miss the rapture because they are not paying it to the Levites. They are getting rich off of it.
Very true D/A,
If you look at what Muslims are doing you can make the case it's part of their religion/culture.
Their prophet was a war lord who would love those in ISIS.
Mike
Good post. There a lot of leaches exploiting christianity for their own gain. NTCC wasnt the first and wont be the last, they just happen to be the ones that exploited many of us. Id still rather be in the US with the freedom like NTCC groups to exist than in Syria with Isis on the rise spreading Sharia law. One scenario juat sucks the other is hell.
Eric
D/A,
The difference is Rape as a Muslim is normal and tolerated.
Rape in a fundamentalist cult is covered up.
That's the big difference.
I expect Muslims to Rape, rape victims, to stone them, to banish them.
I don't expect any Christian church to do that unless they are covering up what everyone in that religion would consider a crime. The difference is larger than the grand canyon...
Someone who calls themselves a Christian can commit horrible acts but they are defined as such in the religion they are hiding in.
Not so with Islam. It's pure barbarism.
Mike
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