The first set of questions that I asked were in reference to finances; which I believe everyone has a right to know, even people who aren't current members now, but that might be considering attending JRA's Jesus Revival Ministries in the future. I'm trying to be objective in this letter and allow him to address the questions that we might have. We've all been burned really bad in the ntcc; and James Ross Ashmore was a high ranking Board Member of that group that we all respected. I held JRA in very high regard even after getting out and during part of the time that I was blogging until some really bad allegations came out against him; at which time we started blogging about him.
Some very good friends who we respect a lot have recently suggested that we should not be so hard on him; because he, much like us, was also under the same brainwashing just at a higher level. We see a major difference. Ashmore had been a Board member of NTCC since it's inception in 1987 and was a Board Member of NTCC's predecessor, NTCG, since 1975. Basically Ashmore became the Secretary Treasurer of NTCG, replacing L.G. Parsons, presumably after allegations of Davis having an affair with Parson's wife caused a split in which the bible school relocated to 2170 Forest Ave. Since Ashmore was such a heavy hitter for NTCG/NTCC, and was privy to much more info than us average church schlubs, we have a very hard time with this simplistic brainwashing theory. Ashmore helped mold these organizations, sitting on the Boards and giving his approval to their doctrines and actions. As a result of his and other Board Members' actions (or lack thereof) most of us have paid very high prices for our ntcc experience.
Additionally, from all accounts, James Ross Ashmore has profited financially and seems to be very well off in his new church. This is remarkable when compared to the commonplace poverty endured by other long-time ntcc ministers. At any rate, I wanted to invite him to answer questions that I have and also any questions that you might have. I would appreciate it if people refrained from name calling for the purpose of being objective. If any of James Ashmore's current members or current supporters would like to say anything in his defense, they are also welcome to do so. I realize that I have been one of his biggest critics; and I have sided on our blog with people that have accused him of some pretty bad things.
In the second section of this letter I have asked him questions relating to the alleged misconduct that others have brought forth and these allegations are concerning Moreno, Lisa Norton and Lori Kelley, Kenneth McPherson and Julie St. Clair. I'm using maiden names because the incidents that involved these people happened a long time ago and the alleged involvement of James Ashmore occurred during that time period. It's been shared that you can't expect someone to go public about things that could implicate them in what may be considered criminal activity, but David did, and he was King of Jerusalem and God allowed him to keep his office. Perhaps if James Ashmore is sincere, God will do the same for him if he admits that he had a part in any of these incidents. My guess is that Ashmore probably won't address any of this. I would hope that he would address at the very least the first six questions that have to do with financial transparency. I feel that because of his position in the ntcc, which he refers to as "The Whore", he owes at least some honesty and transparency to the people who once followed him and believed in him in the ntcc. If anyone else has any questions for him they are welcome to ask in the comment section; however, I would not be surprised if he does not answer. I do want folks to consider that James Ashmore is now holding church services in a building that has a present real estate value of close to 1.5 million dollars and appears to be living in a very nice house which most likely is in an expensive area in San Diego, which is more of an educated guess on my part just from what I've seen from his Facebook videos recorded inside his house and the places he's filmed teaching. Is this wrong? I believe that he should be open about it with the people he formerly profited off of and with his current followers and members. The letter I wrote to him is verbatim as follows:
 |
| We sent a message to James Ashmore's Commentary on Facebook asking for some simple answers. Feel free to add your questions about why he left NTCC and started his own group that he calls Jesus Revival Ministries. |
Hello, just a friendly letter to say congratulations for leaving the ntcc, but after what we all went through it's pretty hard to believe that you have changed. I think it's great that you seem to have had a change of heart on the holiness movement which seemed more to be a doctrine of control than an indicator of faithfulness. By the way, this is Don and I'm sure you've heard of our blog and much of what we blog about. We run a blog to help folks that have been hurt by the ntcc. He have blogged about you extensively and I'm sure that is no secret either. We have close friends that have recently told us that you have changed and that we should not include you when we blog about the ntcc. Up until now, we have been very vocal about you because of the testimonies of not one or two or three witnesses but more than that. Some of the things that you were allegedly responsible for in the ntcc were terrible and definitely not Christ like. I understand that people can repent and that people can change and I would like to believe that about you and Helen, but I have seen no evidence of change. I have been telling folks that if you changed that they would see that change. We all were burned by the ntcc. We gave of our time, money and sweat until we had nothing else to give and we did it as unto the Lord, for nothing in return. Many were kicked to the curb and never visited one time after they left. Many paid their tithe faithfully and were loyal to every church function, every fellowship meeting and every conference but God forbid that we should ever ask or know where our money went. I'm trying to convince people that they should exercise caution before jumping on board with you because I don't see any difference. I want to give you a chance to answer if you will. I'm pretty sure you will just discount everything I say and chalk it all up to the devil and handle this in the same way that the ntcc would handle it.
I have to ask you a few questions and I hope you would answer them honestly before I am willing to believe that you changed at all, (which probably isn't much of a concern to you, but I thought I'd try anyway). The questions that I'm asking should not offend you if everything is right between you and Jesus. In the ntcc everything was done secretively and without transparency and we were all burned. I'm hoping that you are willing to be open and honest about these topics. If you do decide to answer any of these questions please give real answers and don't tap dance. Just answer them straight up. We think people have a right to know and a lot of our readers believe that they have a right to know also. Thank you.
1. Do you believe in or teach people to pay tithes? If you do, what New Testament Scripture do you use to justify it.
2. Do you believe that people have a right to know where their tithe dollars go after being burned for so long in the ntcc?
3. Do you believe that a preacher of the gospel has a moral obligation to be financially transparent?
4. If your church members are paying for your church rent and your home expenses, do they have a right to know how much of their money is going to support you?
5. Are you willing to go public with the financial information that we have asked you about so that former ntcc members that might be considering joining your church can trust you? We believe that a church leader's supporters should know how much money they spend at restaurants, while they sacrifice and budget their grocery bills to pay offerings and tithe to the church. They should know how much of their money goes into your transportation costs while they budget themselves to drive around in oil puking junkers to support their church leaders. They should know how much they are paying for your home and your church while they sacrifice to pay for their church leaders to live the good life. The ntcc leadership has always been secretive and they get very sensitive when you ask about where money goes.
6. Why is it that your blog is private? Shouldn't people that might be considering joining your church have access to the things you teach? Why the shroud of secrecy?
The above questions should be public information and should be available to anyone who attends your church especially if you are being supported by your church members. The following questions are for the victims of abuse that have reported you on our blog. We feel that they have the right to ask you these questions. If it were one or maybe two, I would consider that possibly they could have been lying, but there are too many that have come forward. Below is a list of questions pertaining to the more serious accusations.
1. Did you sexually abuse Julie in any way, did you touch her inappropriately, did you do anything that might be construed as sexual in nature? If you did, did you repent and ask God to forgive you and are you willing to attempt to make things right with Julie?
2. Were you involved in any way in the Phil Kinson Cover up that took place in Japan? Were you sent there to reprimand Roland Moreno or his Family in any way? Did R.W. Davis or Kinson or anyone tell you that Phil Kinson had Roland Moreno drive him to a whore house to retrieve his wallet? This incident resulted in one of the greatest tragedies in ntcc history. If you do admit to this, did you repent and ask Jesus to forgive you?
3. Did you do anything or say anything to Lisa Norton and Lori Kelly to run them off after Johnny Jordan got Lisa pregnant and R.W. Davis moved Johnny and Pam to Graham? Lisa and Lori both claimed that you called them sluts and whores from behind the pulpit after Davis influenced Barbara Norton to abandon Lisa and her special needs brother around Christmas time. If you did have a part in this did you repent? Did you ask God to forgive you and did you do anything to make this right with Lisa and Lori?
4. Did you know that Ken McPherson was raped by Johnny Jordan? Did you allow two confessing homosexuals to attend different churches while trying to run Ken out of the church? Ken says that he could do nothing right and that you criticized him and asked him to just leave the church, while people like Batson and Peters were protected by you. If you did treat Ken unfairly in anyway, did you repent and make it right with God or attempt to make it right with Ken?
Finally just between you and me, do you really believe in the blood moon doctrine that Meinecke is talking about? It hasn't been until very recently that people started calling Harvest moons, blood moons. He said that this past blood moon was the third of four and I looked it up and it's really the first of four, but to use something like a harvest moon to convince people that it's the end of times seems to be a stretch even for you.
 |
| Some people try to use "Signs Of The Times" 'preaching' to frighten people into doing whatever the so-called 'preacher' wants them to do. Don't be fooled! Jesus plainly stated that only the Father in heaven knows when the coming of the Son of Man will be. |
Note To Our Readers:
Don't be misled by some who try to act like they know when the coming of the Son of Man will be. Jesus plainly stated that only the Father in heaven knows that:
But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Mat 24:36 KJV here
But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Mar 13:32 KJV here
Don't Fear Those Presumptuous Prophets:
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that [is] the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, [but] the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. Deu 18:22 KJV here
122 comments:
D'Mario said...
My wife and I started reading your blog about a year ago. We struggled a lot with stuff that we read trying to decide if you were just bitter people that didn't get what you wanted in N.T.C.C. or had great reason to believe they were not of God.
About 18 months ago we were sent out to be helpers in a work. The pastor there was quite harsh to me and my wife. Calling us out in services when we were not doing what he wanted us to do. Getting mad when my youngest on a Saturday night service would fall asleep after such a long day. To give you an idea my youngest was nursery age at the time. The pastor's wife would belittle my wife making fun of her in front of our children while I was at work. This really upset my oldest because I had taught him how to honor his mother. It got so bad I finally called Rev. Kekel not knowing what else to do. He told me to stop wining and like a baby and I need to grow up and get with the program. I was so hurt no one cared.
About 7 months ago one of my children began to run a high fever and was really sick. I called the pastor where I am at and said I am not sure my wife will be able to come tomorrow to Saturday soul-winning. He got angry and said that if she doesn't come there would not be enough women to pair up evenly. When I insisted my child needed my wife, he then threat to report me to Rev. Kekel. My wife stressed out because Rev. Kekel had already told us we could never miss anything about church and soul-winning even for our children. She told me if she didn't go it she would be disobeying the man of God and God would punish us. She was feared God's punish on our family. So she, all the kids, and I went soul-winning. Right before that night's service my child got really bad. We decided to take her into the ER. I called the pastor. He told me I was to drop off my wife and child and I and the other children were to come to church. He had no concern at all. I told him no I am going to be with my family they need me. My daughter was in the hospital for two days. That pastor nor Rev. Kekel seemed to care. I got yelled at for missing all services that weekend. My wife and I took turns being in the room while the other took care of the other children. I only worked a half a day Tuesday so I could bring my child home. We tried to make it work for another couple of weeks but it only got worse so one weekend we just didn't attend anything. In fact that weekend we went to the zoo for the first time as a family. My children had never seen a bear up close so it was thrilling to see them so excited.
One thing I was surprised with us leaving was my oldest told me I am so glad we don't have to go back. I hated that place.
I am glad you put out so much information on your blog it helps my family to feels good about our decision. It also lets me know when my gut told not to trust certain people to care for my children while in bible school I wasn't being overly caution. They probably won't trust worthy. It must be hard to share ugly information but without I don't think I would have believed God was okay with us leaving.
To all those that think we don't love God. We still have family talks about God and the bible. We even sing songs about God. The only difference now is my family is first.
The previous comment came in right as we were getting ready to post this J.R. Ashmore Thread but we didn't want it to get lost or hidden from our readers by this new post. This is a very good example of how people and their families suffered needlessly in the ntcc. We will probably do a blog post relating to the previous comment after this Letter to Ashmore runs it's course. We would like to thank Mr. or Mrs. D'Mario for sharing their testimony and we hope that it saves other ministers and their families from suffering similar pain. This is a perfect example of how people suffered in the Ntcc and why people should think really hard before signing their families up for another cult experience. People see the things they want you to see in the public Arena but when you join up with them and commit yourselves to them there is another side of them that you become subjected to. Is it more of the same, or is it real? Don't get burned again, be careful with your eternal soul.
People in Ntcc should be concerned with the eternal soul of their children. Kids know cruelty when they see it
Jesus the little children so if you don't love and care for these little onesie their well being how can you be if God. I used to see with my own eyes the handling of children in the Ntcc. If you don't care for your children no one else will.
D'Mario, who and where were you helping. Judging by the "Pastor's" actions, he probably had the snip snip done to him in obedience to God.
D'Mario, you would be doing the world a favor by identifying the cretinous "pastor" who did you that way, so that others may be warned to avoid his pernicious "church." He called you out--now it's your turn. Don't be intimidated any longer; you are free to share factual information with total impunity. They can't do a single thing to you; you are outside their orbit and you are shaking their funky dust from your feet. Every warning has value, so be bold. Use your liberty for the benefit of potential future victims: who is this creep?
Anonymous said:
"I used to see with my own eyes the handling of children in the Ntcc. If you don't care for your children no one else will."
DNA said:
Some have stated that one of their worst regrets were how they raised their children in the ntcc. How the ntcc leadership treats your children is a pretty good indicator of how they treat people in general. The sad thing is that adults can do something about it, but children rely on their parents to make the decisions. The ntcc uses the fear of eternity in the lake of fire to keep people paying tithe and attending church services. They even use the fear of hell fire and brimstone to keep people bringing their children to cult meetings.
The ntcc used to be fond of saying that Jesus taught more about hell than he did about heaven, but if you look at it closely, who was Jesus teaching about heaven and who was Jesus teaching about hell? Most of the time that Jesus was warning people of hell, He was admonishing the hypocrites which in the time that Jesus walked the earth were called Pharisees, Saducees, Scribes and Lawyers. These religious leaders mirrored the lives of modern day religious hypocrites just like the ones you would find in the ntcc and other similar cult groups. Big time hypocrites that steal from the poor to make themselves rich. When is the last time you seen one of these rich hypocrites in the ntcc do right?
When Zacchaeus the rich man of short stature got saved, he said: "Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold." Luke 19:8 When is the last time you seen anyone in the ntcc do that? In order for the ntcc to repent after Zacchaeus' model they would have to restore every tithe payer's money back to them four fold. They took money from us by false accusation, calling us God robbers, and threatening us with hell and what did they do with that money? Take a look at the mansions they live in. Jesus knew what was in Zack's past and he knows what these ntcc hucksters are all about. Zacchaeus restored people four times what he took after admitting that he did it of his own will, plus he gave half his goods to feed the poor? Ever seen anyone in the ntcc do that? When people give to the ntcc their money goes towards making sinners like Kekel even more wealthy.
Anonymous said...
People in Ntcc should be concerned with the eternal soul of their children. Kids know cruelty when they see it
DNA said:
Even kids know when something is wrong. Kekel is cooking his own goose. The goose who lays the golden eggs are the ones that he trains to go out into the ministry and bring more tithe payers into the fold. When they and their children are mistreated by some abusive jerk and they call Kekel for help he does what's in his nature to do. He blasts the victims while praising the abusive jerk that's in power, which in D'Mario's case was the pastor that he was sent to help. What a waste of time, money and labor. This is the kind of thing that will eventually make the ntcc self destruct.
If Kekel continues to treat people like trash, they aren't going to follow him because he is a poor leader and has no leadership skills. Although RWD was a conniving and lying money grubbing hypocrite, he knew the value of motivational speaking and he also knew how to manipulate people in a way that they would not think they were being manipulated. Not Kekel. Mike and Tanya are horrible examples and they do not have an ounce of wisdom. The Kekel's better find a way to endear themselves to the brainwashed masses or they are going to have an angry mob on their hands.
Vic said:
"Use your liberty for the benefit of potential future victims: who is this creep?"
DNA said:
It would help future victims if you stated who this Pastor is. You took a pretty big step by sharing your account of what happened to you and your family and we appreciate that. It raises awareness and other people who have been through similar situations can learn from your testimony.
The Pastor and wife that you spoke of are not just doing this stuff to you, but I'm sure it's in their nature and you can rest assured that they have treated others like you and there will be people in the future that might have to endure the same things. By sharing the name of this creep and his wife it will bring attention to him, and people will steer clear of him. A lot of people read these blogs and many ntcc'rs know exactly what you are going through because that is the culture in the ntcc.
When we shared Julies testimony of what Ralph and Joan did to her and asked pointed questions about why Ralph lost his minister's license for six months, people started to steer clear of Ralph and Joan St. Clair. If you look at their Facebook page before Julie came forward, there were all kinds of likes and comments on Joan's Page. Once Julie who was abused as a child in the ntcc, came forward, people steered clear of them and nobody wanted to associate with them on Facebook. There were hardly any likes and almost no comments after the truth came out about them. I believe that by Julie sharing her story publicly that she spared others future abuse at the hands of this sick couple. If her story had no credibility, why would so many people in the ntcc shun a long time ntcc loyal couple like the St. Clairs?
Getting back to Ashmore, we think that anyone who might be considering joining Ashmore's church or becoming friends with him should have the right to know the answers to the questions we asked him. I'm not expecting JRA to answer our letter. It would require a degree of honesty and transparency that I don't think he is capable of. Many of us in the X-er community have been brutally honest about what we went through and also the part we played in the ntcc. We have nothing to gain and only our reputation to lose.
Some have openly criticized and preached at us and others have marginalized us, discredited us and still others have tried to assassinate our character. In spite of all this there are many people who read our blog and there are current and former members who know that all these people can't be lying. They know that what happens in the ntcc is wrong and while some are trying to break away others are looking for a replacement gospel. If James Ashmore doesn't answer these questions, why should anyone trust him, especially after what we went through in the ntcc? Should we just go by what we see on his Facebook page or on his YouTube channel? He writes the things that he wants you to see and believe, but is there any remorse for what he did while in the ntcc? Has he changed? Is he more concerned about having a nice home, a nice car and a nice Church building than he is about the members of his church sacrificing so he can have all those nice things? Or did he bring this wealth along with him when he abandoned the ntcc and started his own organization so he could have the lion share of gifts? These are valid questions and you have the right to get straight answers to these questions.
We have good friends that were long time members of the ntcc. They haven't moved out to San Diego or joined Ashmore's church to our knowledge but they have told us that we should know that he has changed and the things he now writes are indications that we should accept him. We understand that many X-ers that have been in the ntcc for close to three decades know him better than we do and many hold him in high regard even though his past is shady.
I believe from personal experience that if God could forgive me, He can forgive anyone. I would so like to see that happen with James Ashmore or any of the long time board members, but with that forgiveness there should be a willingness to be honest and transparent. People who have been wronged in the past should have a right to know exactly what you do with the money because they don't want to be misled again.
We would ask those friends of ours to consider the things we've shared and ask yourselves after everything you endured in the ntcc, do you have the right to some straight answers?
I understood that ashmore inherited the house he lives in when his parents died.
All in all he has done damage to the ntcc otherwise they hadn't dogged him out st the conference.
Anonymous said...
"I understood that ashmore inherited the house he lives in when his parents died."
DNA said:
I've heard that too, although nobody seems to know for certain. Let's say that he does own it. Do the members of his church deserve to know how much taxes he pays on it. Do people that might be considering attending his church have a right to know the value of the Ashmore's house so they can make an educated decision on how much they want to give to his ministry? I think it's a good thing for him if he did in fact inherit the house he lives in. Maybe he gets a really good deal on the 1.5 million dollar church building that his church members have to pay the rent on. The fact that he's renting for 2 services a week, who knows, many they pay less for that building than they would if they rented or owned one of their own where they were responsible for utilities and insurance, repairs and taxes. So let's say that God has blessed Ashmore's ministry to the max. Let's say that the members have much less of a burden than the members in the ntcc would, and lets say or pretend that Ashmore doesn't even preach tithe or accept it of his congregants. Let's say that financially everything is on the up and up.
Should people have the right to know? Should James Ashmore be transparent? Should you as a responsible adult who has been burned once before in the ntcc, (And I'm not addressing this to the person that wrote this comment, but every one of our readers), be concerned about how Ashmore spends your money? Do you have a right to be? I'm only referring to the financial aspects of Ashmore's ministry. What about all the other baggage that Ashmore brings with him from the ntcc? Do you as a possible future member have a right to know what you are getting into? Do you have a right to know if JRA has changed or if there is a possibility that in the long run you will be thrown under the bus yet another time as a sacrifice for the advancement of some cult leaders secretive causes?
I personally don't trust Ashmore. I'm not saying that I could never trust him and I'm glad that he left the ntcc and I can even acknowledge that he appears to have taken a step or two in the right direction. However, as long as he remains secretive and does nothing to endear himself to the multitudes that he has deceived in the past, I can not and will not support him or trust him. Many people do and I'm curious to know exatly why, but as the ntcc members are afraid to talk so it seems that the Ashmorgites also have the same fear. If Ashmore won't come clean neither will his followers because they don't know anymore than Ashmore lets them know. If they are afraid to come on the blogs and set the record straight, they are much like the ntcc in that they don't have the answers to the questions we ask and they don't want to be exposed for what they really are.
Anonymous said:
"All in all he has done damage to the ntcc otherwise they hadn't dogged him out at the conference."
DNA said:
So, it sounds like what you are saying is that Ashmore's departure has done a lot of damage to the ntcc and because of that, they dogged him out in conference. I bet they felt like a bunch of hypocrites if they dedicated any amount of time during conference dogging Ashmore out. After all, the only thing Ashmore was guilty of was leaving the ntcc and wanting a bigger piece of the pie, which has always been an unforgivable sin. However, Ashmore was held in much higher regard among ntcc members. People had more respect for Ashmore because He could Preach, while Kekel couldn't preach his way out of soggy toilet paper. Ashmore has held just about every office in the ntcc that there is to be held and has been successful doing so. He knows how to satisfy the money and numbers requirement. Kekel was an abject failure in comparison to Ashmore and he has done nothing to help his own cause.
Many people who left the ntcc have shared how Kekel is completely void of Christian character and how he is completely dead in his spirit and in his soul. He comes across like an empty shell and the nut is gone. He trains people to go into the ministry and then lets some snake oil salesmen degrade them and then he finishes them off on the phone with his rude and hateful advise. He says, stop whining and get with the program. The ntcc leadership is void of love and Christian leadership. For anyone to dog out Ashmore in an ntcc conference would be almost laughable.
I've been in Ntcc for such a long time and I noticed that the longer you stay the more you find that you'll not Make it far if you're not bringing souls in and empty your pay check to more causes that one. If you are a soul that's coming without a car or a job I feel it for you. The gospel isn't so free to you for long. The tithe and the offering is not all you will be paying. All my friends who have left and going to other churches when j see them, they are so much happier and not only that but the messages they shared with me and their growth is astounding while I have to listen tou pastor recycled messages. The same few songs and then tells to we need to get the fire when once had do to speak. I believe we need new manna from heaven don't you think.
I never had a problem with Ashmore and I forgave him because it's easy to be A product of your environment. I can relate because when I joined the Ntcc my extended family was not good in my eyes and Ntcc family is all I cared about. I woke up one day to this partiality love and knew things had to change. I was so busy for the kingdom or so I thought. I remembered being so unhappy with my spouse bs I using several cars on Sunday's while the pastor and his wife rode together. All I can say it takes a strong person to part ways with Ntcc. It's not easy. Talk about feeling earthly condemnation from men. If they talked about Ashmore I won't be surprised because many who have left I would be in a gathering ms it would sound more like they crossed up with God and left. The pastor is never at fault when a member would leave. I noticed the love has grown so cold in the Ntcc. It's still is.
Anonymous said...
"I've been in Ntcc for such a long time and I noticed that the longer you stay the more you find that you'll not Make it far if you're not bringing souls in and empty your pay check to more causes that one."
DNA said:
Thank you for commenting and thanks for your perspective. There seem to be more opinions than those that are for or against. I understand how you feel about the Ashmores and there are a lot of people that agree with you. I personally feel that one would have to jump out of the frying pan and into the fire to join up with him not knowing what he really believes, but I have been wrong before. You really nailed some things in your comment and raise some good questions. I'm not going to publish any comments that are critical of you and I'm not going to say anything critical of you because I would like to hear from you again.
When inside the ntcc, I have found that it's hard to imagine ever leaving, but when we have left and figured things out, we can't imagine ever subjecting ourselves to the organization again. It's two completely different worlds. Getting from where a person is that has just began to drink the ntcc Koolaid to where we are now is a long journey. For some it takes more than one or two decades. The fact that you understand where we are coming from and see at least some things the way that we do, lets people know that you have a lot of it figured out, and perhaps you will find an escape hatch and make it out without losing everything.
I have more to say but would rather open this up to others. I know there might be mixed opinions about the last comment but I would like to hear more from them so please don't be to harsh in your comments for now. I know some might think I'm trampling on their personal freedom by not publishing their comments, but I want to hear more from this person and I want this person to feel comfortable commenting on this blog.
D'Mario I feel for you and I am sorry they treated you that way. I had similiar treatment from the Gandys. Both of them treated us like slaves. They really are buddy buddy with the Kekels. We left because the leaders weren't willing to move us. My children hated them. That said something to me since my daughter loved everyone.
I'm ambivalent about Ashmore. It would go a long way if he would publicly address some of these issues. People are looking for reassurance, and his silence doesn't meet that need. I'm hopeful that he's authentic. One thing I do remember is that during one of the last conferences I attended at the campground (this would have been around '94), he absolutely peeled RW's hide, right from the pulpit. He was preaching about Eli, how in his old age his eyes had grown dim and he lost touch with God, and how his priorities were all screwed up to the point that he preferred his wicked sons above God. He said when that happens, God will look elsewhere and raise up another, that even if something appears to be a well-oiled machine, it's sure to fail without God's hand on it. He got really stirred up. People were shouting, but RW just sat there on the platform shuffling some papers and acting oblivious (which he may have been, dim as his eyes were). I don't think many there dared apply it to RW, but I was starting to have serious doubts about the org, and it fit him like a glove. Not sure if Ashmore intended it that way, but it was quite remarkable and I've never forgotten it. Nevertheless, he continued to promote and enable RW for years afterward, so maybe he was just an unwitting vessel and didn't even realize himself the significance of that message. Maybe he though that once RW checked out, change would be possible, but the way it unfolded makes it look like his loyalty and support for RW endured to the end. Too bad he didn't stand up to him while he was still around; that would have made is position clearer. As it stands, many will conclude that he really had no beef with NTCC (which, according to Joe Olson, is a synonym for RW Davis), only with Mike. Under that scenario, he merely becomes the disgruntled loser of an institutional power struggle.
Anonymous said...
D'Mario I feel for you and I am sorry they treated you that way. I had similiar treatment from the Gandys. Both of them treated us like slaves.
DNA said,
"I'm glad that folks are mentioning some of these abusers by name. I've heard others say that the Gandy was rude and abusive. It's important to identify these abusers and to publicly mark them so others will know that it's not their fault when these abusive types rail against them. If Gandy says anything negative about you, just shake it off and know that Gandy is an abusive dude, and he can't help himself. Gandy has a classic case of Narcissistic Personality Disorder and if he would subject himself to a clinical diagnosis, they would identify him as an emotionally disturbed individual that deflects all of his own fault on to other people. Gandy is unstable like many others in the ntcc.
For every Gandy there is a D'Mario. I'm not saying that Gandy and his wife were the ones who mistreated D'Mario and family, but for ever Gandy there is a D'Mario. For every abuser, there usually are multiple victims of abuse. For every slave owner there is at least one slave, sometimes many more. Slave owners treat all the help like slaves.
In the ntcc it is no different. There are people in the ntcc that don't deserve to be treated like dirt. They have bought in to the ntcc outward vision of lost souls and they are committed to helping folks. The vision of souls turns out to be a cover for a crooked organization that uses the resources of others to further their own prosperity. When someone leaves, it's not because they were abused and treated like scum. It's always because they lost their vision for souls. It's not because they no longer want to see people used to make Kekel rich, it's because they don't care about the Salvation of that soul. Does Kekel or Gandy really care about anything other than what advances their own interests?
Anonymous said:
"Talk about feeling earthly condemnation from men".
DNA said,
That's my point. I don't mind disagreement and I don't mind different opinions. We have been getting some good comments from current and former ntcc'rs lately and I want them to feel comfortable to continue to share on this blog. I'll try to be fair to everyone, but I don't want these people to feel condemnation on this blog. If you are in the ntcc and you are commenting against the ntcc, I personally am glad you are on board and hope you continue to comment. Your voice is very important. We are not here to tear you down. We hope that you will see things the way we do but we also realize that it took a long time to get here. In fairness to other's who might disagree, we might post opposing views, but we ask that folks try to remember the condemnation that we were all under and how we once bought in to the ntcc system and not only lived it and preached it but we went along with the abuse until it hit home and it got to be too much for us to tolerate. Then we left.
Vic said:
"One thing I do remember is that during one of the last conferences I attended at the campground (this would have been around '94), he absolutely peeled RW's hide, right from the pulpit."
DNA said:
I remember that conference but I wouldn't dare think that about Davis at that time. I was totally brainwashed and thought R-dub was the next in line for the throne of God. If that thought even came close to crossing my mind, I would have been willing to pluck off an appendage to make it stop. However, I held Ashmore in the same light as Davis. I thought both were above sin and believed they were the best examples on earth to follow. Of course, there was no FACTNET in those days, no blogs, no information highway. I had no idea about the double standards or where the money was going.
You basically nailed it with this comment. I feel the same way about Ashmore. I hope he is authentic but his unwillingness to address these issues publicly makes me think he hasn't changed much, or if he has changed at all it's for his own financial benefit.
I also was a helper to the Gandys. He took me before the leaders one conference because no matter how hard I tried he felt I was not doing what he commanded. Yes he used the word the word commanded. I got brought before board with my wife got chewed out. Ashmore was in that board meetingd he just laughed and made some rude comnents. Gandy later accused me of something that was a lie but it rocked my marriage. The leaders came to my wife said the Lord had spoke to them about the sin Gandy had came to them aboutand the Lord said to divorce me. I was so hurt because I went to a couple of the leaders separately including Ashmore was told the Lord was punishing me. I went into a deep depression thought the Lord hated me.
I don't think God cares about me at all. I don' t have my minister's license anymore. I feel so lost. Many of you probably think I am just stupid and caused my own problems. I just don't understand why they lied and people supported it.
Rev Ashmore I have a question. Why when people were brought before the NTCC board did you laugh, make fun of them and agree to the punishments brought againsted them?
Ramirez ( the younger) was a particularly vicious pastor. His wife was cold and unfeeling, like I was beneath her. Instead of being a man and telling me he had a problem he would lie and verbally abuse me while cowering behind the pulpit. No respect for someone like that.
Its no wonder the Morenos felt like they had no hope.
This is a comment Ange left on a previous thread on Oct. 7, 2011.
Seriously, folks. I've seen more ntcc so-called pastors who change from almost normal human beings into rabid dogs just as soon as they step behind a pulpit. While they "hide behind the pulpit" they foam at the mouth and growl, pointing fingers that would be more accurately aimed at themselves.
Some ntcc so-called "ministers" don't even wait to get behind the pulpit. They are just nasty all the time. I've shared in another place how Keith A. Gandy jumped all over me, reading me the riot act, chewing up one side and down the other because I had light-heartedly quipped that "chivalry is dead" trying to diffuse a tense situation between a young (too young- ahem - if you know what I mean) married couple. Gandy had no place doing that. But I really think that is just who he is. Mean spirit. Mean heart. He used to cause all kinds of turmoil at the campground too. Why not just pray and get some fruit of the Holy Spirit in your life, Keith? Stop trying sooo hard to be davis' boi. God won't be impressed with your idolatrous loyalty to the adulterer rodger wilson davis. But what you do to the least of these, you've done to Christ. Seriously. Think about it KAG.
Anonymous said:
" I don' t have my minister's license anymore. I feel so lost. Many of you probably think I am just stupid and caused my own problems."
DNA said:
Don't be so hard on yourself. Count it all joy that you don't have a license to abuse people like they do. They think that their minister's license gives them the right to rebuke people just for the sake of rebuking them. It's a power trip, and for some reason these insecure ntcc Davis want-a-bees get off on usurping authority over others and misusing the power they have so that they feel they can abuse people any time without answering to anyone. You have began to wake up, but don't blame yourself for what you went through. I know people will say that we are responsible for being stupid and falling for their scam and all that. But seriously. We all thought we were doing the right thing. Many of us were not in it for our own personal gain and it's a good thing we weren't because we wouldn't of gained anything in the ntcc unless we were willing to play be their rules and that ultimately includes being an abusive jerk.
The ntcc doesn't want you to be successful and they don't want you to feel good about yourself. The only thing that satisfies them is your willingness to be at their beckoning command both night and day. Going to the ntcc leadership with a problem is like a Jew asking Hitler for a comfortable place to live. If you are in the ntcc and you have problems, the worst thing you can do is go to Kekel. Kekel don't care about your problems and he don't want to be bothered any more than Davis did. It's the same way with the board members. If you go to a board member with a problem they are going to handle it the way they were taught by people like Davis, Olson and Kekel. If your problem has anything to do with sexual abuse, child abuse or physical abuse that you have witnessed or that you have experienced, you'd be better off departing from the source of the perversion which most often is the ntcc itself.
If you have left the ntcc and still feel guilty, you are not alone. You have to unlearn all of the false doctrines you have been taught. Compare the teachings of the ntcc with what it actually says in the bible. Realize also that the ntcc leaders were a bunch of double standard hypocrites that lived the opposite of what they taught. God doesn't expect you to live for these hypocrites in the ntcc and he doesn't expect you to follow anyone that gets rich off of money they didn't earn.
If was very difficult under the Gandys Ministry. As a member I watched so many departed under his ministry. I can go on but I won't.
Rev. Ashmore why did you tell on people for infractions against the Ntcc rules? You knew what was going to happen to them. Why did you notx come talk to the ones that you were telling? Why did you always seem happy to see us jacked up? Where you paid by RW Davis to do this?
Why did you decide to leave James and Helen Ashmore? There are some that say you and Mike Kekel had a fight over money. That he told you that the salary RW promised you to continue was being taken away. This lack of money upset you. Is this true?
I haven't been here for awhile. Did anyone post about Ralph St. Claire dying of a massive stroke?
It wasn't until I read this blog that I wasn't alone. Rev. Ashmore went to Rev.Olsen told him that my work partner at my job and I were in a homo relationship. I lost my license and marriage. This was a lie. I ended up in time getting my license back but my marriage was gone. He wasn't even sorry about this.
Anon said: the longer you stay in ntcc the more you see that you're not make it far" that thought was in my mind and wanted to come and share but so glad anon came here to say it.
When stclaire died I Thought just how sad ending he had.
I realized that I was looking at my life and my spouses life ending just like the stclaires.
Here you have them working for so many years trying to build a church moving here, there everywhere and at the end he dies and leaves his wife penny less and without anywhere to live! Living at the graham campus!
That whole thing made me think that that is how we are gonna end if we stay in the ntcc longer.
Pray for us, the whole debacle with ashmore is just a lot of nonsense if you ask me.
They are saying that he was already cross wired with God since 20 yrs ago but rw and kekel always talked to him and tried so hard etc etc. but finally he left, right!
Anonymous said...
If was very difficult under the Gandys Ministry. As a member I watched so many departed under his ministry.
DNA said:
That's the way it usually goes with these abusive preachers. People come out and pray, they get in for a while and then the abusive jerk runs them off. The one's that get run off are usually sincere but they put people like Gandy in the position of having to answer questions that they are uncomfortable answering. I can't count the people I've seen run off over tithe or financial reasons. If you want to see the devil come out of someone like Gandy, ask him if you can be a couple days late on your tithe. You will see the devil personified. They can't help themselves. It's in their heart. Their love of money blinds them and their is no love for the souls that give.
M.T. said...
Rev. Ashmore why did you tell on people for infractions against the Ntcc rules? You knew what was going to happen to them. Why did you not come talk to the ones that you were telling? Why did you always seem happy to see us jacked up? Where you paid by RW Davis to do this?
DNA said:
These are very good questions for J.R. Ashmore. Should he not have to answer them? This is a direct question for Ashmore, who perhaps is to busy strolling down the San Diego beach front with the ocean breeze blowing through his hair making a YouTube video on God's Grace. If Ashmore ratted people out to Davis and it got to the Executive board, you and your family were toast. I went to a board meeting one time to answer questions about why Ballard left the org. and I felt like I was on trial. I would hate to have been accused by someone like Ashmore. These board members to include Ashmore, at that time, were very immoral and they all lived by double standards. None of them would stand up for what was right but they all allowed Davis to make decisions for them, and Davis was more wicked than the rest.
Ashmore was nothing more than a hatchet man and a spiritual assassin during the time Davis was alive. His allegiance to Davis was like a sealant that kept the ship from sinking. All of the Board Members knew about Davis' infidelity. They all did what was best for them and if a few church schlubs were sacrificed as collateral damage along the way, no skin off their back. If Ashmore had changed, I am convinced that he would have publicly apologized for his part in the ntcc and he would address some of these issues.
Anonymous said...
Why did you decide to leave James and Helen Ashmore? There are some that say you and Mike Kekel had a fight over money. That he told you that the salary RW promised you to continue was being taken away. This lack of money upset you. Is this true?
DNA said:
Another good question that people have a right to know. Should people just trust Ashmore and join his new church group, or should they cautiously by weary of his past and ask questions to verify if Ashmore has really changed? Did he leave because of money? Was he promised a continuous income by Davis? Kekel didn't seem to care. If it was over money, which it probably was, why would Kekel want to honor his Pappy in laws wishes and give his own money to Ashmore? Kekel was most likely jealous of Ashmore and wanted him out of the way. It didn't take long for Ashmore to leave after Davis died.
So How about it James? Do people have a right to know? should they trust you without verifying your reasons for starting your own group or cult?
Veronica said...
I haven't been here for awhile. Did anyone post about Ralph St. Claire dying of a massive stroke?
DNA said:
Veronica, Yes he did die of a massive stroke according to the daughter that he and Joan denied was theirs. We also did a blog post on the Death of Ralph St. Clair, and how that he died with very little fanfare. He had no celebration of life like Davis did and most ntcc'rs found out on our blog because they wanted to be secretive about it. Julie shared her testimony of how she was raised in the ntcc by her parents. Click on the link above that says "Ralph St. Clair's Legacy" and you will find out what the St. Clairs were really all about.
Anonymous said...
It wasn't until I read this blog that I wasn't alone. Rev. Ashmore went to Rev.Olsen told him that my work partner at my job and I were in a homo relationship. I lost my license and marriage. This was a lie. I ended up in time getting my license back but my marriage was gone. He wasn't even sorry about this.
DNA said:
Man, I hate hearing stuff like this. I'm sorry that you had to go through this in an organization that calls itself the last hope for mankind. It looks like the questions are rolling in for you James. Here is another question that perhaps you can address. Did you wrongly accuse this man of being in a homosexual relationship with one of his fellow workers on the job? Did you go to Uncle Joe Olson and smear this guy? Did you destroy his marriage? Did you take away his minister's license?
Has anyone else noticed or is it just me, that Ashmore seems to have been involved in a lot of scandals involving homosexual activity. Bro. Ken shared that Ashmore ran him off, while harboring two confessing homosexuals named Peters and Batson. Davis had to clean up that mess and in the process he called Ashmore out for not telling him the truth about these two professing homosexuals. Bro. Ken was never accused by anyone of being a homosexual that I'm aware of, but he was a victim of Johnny Jordan who is another predator that was harbored by Davis and possibly Ashmore too.
For those that require two or more witnesses, there you have it. Another man stated that Ashmore was the one who started the gay foot massages in the servicemen's home back when he opened one of the first ones. So how about it James Ross, do you think people have a right to know what the Jesus Revival Ministries is all about? You have been very outspoken about the ntcc and it's current leadership, do you feel any obligation to be honest with your blind followers?
"I don't think God cares about me at all."
The Word of God says,
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. - Jhn 3:16 KJV
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. - Jhn 3:17 KJV
He that believeth on him is not condemned: ... - Jhn 3:18 KJV
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. - Rom 5:8 KJV
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. - Rom 5:9 KJV
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. - Rom 5:10 KJV
DNA say,
Why do we quote you scriptures? Because the Word of God is the Truth that sets us free from satan's lies. When Christ was tempted in the wilderness, Jesus used the scriptures to silence the lies of satan.
Matthew 4:1-11 (scripture/link at the bottom of the comment)
We are to do the same. When the bible tells us to take up the armour of God, it is commanding us to USE the arsenal.
Eph 6:10-18
We don't have to stand around like we are just a dusty suit of armour in a museum. We embody that suit (literally put that thing on) and USE the weapons God has given us to defeat satan's lies against us.
satan is the accuser of the brethren. So use your weapons to shut him up; or, as the Bible says,
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: - 2 Cor 10:3 KJV
(For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) - 2 Cor 10:4 KJV
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; - 2 Cor 10:5 KJV
When the devil tells you God doesn't love you, you don't have to take it laying down. You can stand and fight using God's proven weaponry. :o)
All bible references found here
We say again,
When the devil tells you God doesn't love you, you don't have to take it laying down. You can stand and fight using God's proven weaponry. :o)
All bible references found here
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. - Jhn 3:16 KJV
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. - Jhn 3:17 KJV
He that believeth on him is not condemned: ... - Jhn 3:18 KJV
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. - Rom 5:8 KJV
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. - Rom 5:9 KJV
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. - Rom 5:10 KJV
Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. - Mat 4:1 KJV
And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. - Mat 4:2 KJV
And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. - Mat 4:3 KJV
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. - Mat 4:4 KJV
Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, - Mat 4:5 KJV
And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. - Mat 4:6 KJV
Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. - Mat 4:7 KJV
Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; - Mat 4:8 KJV
And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. - Mat 4:9 KJV
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. - Mat 4:10 KJV
Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him. - Mat 4:11 KJV
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. - Eph 6:10 KJV
Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. - Eph 6:11 KJV
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. - Eph 6:12 KJV
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. - Eph 6:13 KJV
Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; - Eph 6:14 KJV
And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; - Eph 6:15 KJV
Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. - Eph 6:16 KJV
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: - Eph 6:17 KJV
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; - Eph 6:18 KJV
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: - 2Co 10:3 KJV
(For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) - 2Co 10:4 KJV
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; - 2Co 10:5 KJV
"I don' t have my minister's license anymore."
But Jesus called them [unto him], and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. - Mat 20:25 KJV
But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; - Mat 20:26 KJV
And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: - Mat 20:27 KJV
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. - Mat 20:28 KJV
DNA say,
Don't worry about some piece of cardboard issued from an unaccredited organization.
If you want to be a minister, serve people like Jesus did.
:o)
"I feel so lost."
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. - Luk 19:10 KJV
The beautiful thing about God is that He loves us even when we don't feel it or think it's so. He loves us so much He gave His Son Jesus Christ to die in our place. That's powerful. Don't worry if you don't feel like it's true. Just accept and believe that it is true. Remind yourself of these scriptures and set yourself free from the lies of the enemy.
gandy has been known to do the devil's work, railing without cause on the brethren while boasting to another minister about how he loved to do so and loved to take the false accusations to davis to cause more heartache. It's not pleasant, especially when you are going through it; I know. I've experienced it firsthand and seen gandy railing on other Christians. But listen to what the Word of God says about such:
And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God. - Phl 1:28 KJV
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; - Phl 1:29 KJV
Having the same conflict which ye saw in me, and now hear [to be] in me. - Phl 1:30 KJV
Sure Christians suffer. The ones inflicting the harm are not right with God. But we who suffer can rejoice in the Lord.
Anonymous said:
"Pray for us, the whole debacle with ashmore is just a lot of nonsense if you ask me.
They are saying that he was already cross wired with God since 20 yrs ago but rw and kekel always talked to him and tried so hard etc etc. but finally he left, right!"
DNA said:
That's funny! Cross wired with God. I remember when someone didn't agree with an ntcc minister they would be accused of being 'crossed up with God'. Don't visit so and so, he is crossed up with God. Crossed up with God often meant that they were rejecting God. It's funny how someone like Ashmore can be 'crossed up with God' and allowed to stay for twenty years and others who were 'crossed up with God' were run off immediately so they wouldn't corrupt the rest of the flock.
I'm not sure if you are sticking up for Ashmore or not, and I don't think any less of you if you are. There are many people who knew the Ashmores for decades and they are willing to believe him without requiring any answers from him. I know the tone of his ministry has changed a bit and some of his teachings seem more easy going, but so has the ntcc changed and they don't seem to be getting the same pass that Ashmore gets. The ntcc has back pedaled on their holiness doctrine and now what used to be called worldliness is common place in the ntcc.
We are trying to give the Ashmores a chance to come clean but perhaps if they answered our questions honestly it would put them in an awkward position of having to explain the unexplainable. I don't believe that all the voices against Ashmore are lying. Something seems amiss and we had hoped he would confront these issues. I think he would gain a lot more respect from everyone, if he owned up to what he did. People are forgiving and if he came out and said he was wrong and that he treated people wrong in the ntcc they would have more respect for him than his silent denials.
When all else fails, music can reach through the cobwebs and usher us into God's presence. That's why we have a YouTube channel with playlists of Christian music. Try it out. If you don't like one song or artist or style, try another one. One of our favorite playlists is called Confessions. It has songs where other Christians express their doubts, failures, shortcomings, and restoration through God's grace. It's there to remind us we are not alone. All Christians face adversity and need God to carry them and give them His grace.
For Confessions Playlist Click Here
Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; - Eph 5:19 KJV
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. - Col 3:16 KJV
Xerblog YouTube Channel,
Click here
And, because we are not ignorant of the enemy's devices, we believe that by now the devil has told you that we are blaming you for what you went through. Though my poor writing skills may make it seem so, that is not what we mean to say.
What we mean to say is that if the enemy is picking on you, and tearing you down, Dude (or Dudette), you are in good company! Why do you think Cain hated Abel? Because Cain was crossed up and could see that Abel was righteous. That convicted Cain. Rather than repenting, Cain killed Abel. That is what gandy and other ntccers are doing when they tear you down in order to be men-pleasers, running to the org leaders to tell on people for things that are not even sin. But just like the scripture says, it is an evident token of their perdition - they are messed up, headed for hell. The good news or gospel is that they don't have to stay that way. They too could repent. All they have to do is confess, God, I am sorry for jacking-up the brothers for my own pleasure. It's that simple. But for your part, Christian, whoever you are:
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. - 1Jo 3:11 KJV
Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous. - 1Jo 3:12 KJV
Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. - 1Jo 3:13 KJV
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death. - 1Jo 3:14 KJV
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. - 1Jo 3:15 KJV
One thing I never understood about ntcc is the culture of lying. The pastor will stand behind the pulpit and fellowships and lie about someone. Twenty people in the room will know its a lie, and not say anything. No.fear of God whatsoever.
That conference in 1994 was my last one. The many years of spiritual and verbal abuse combined with how they used me up financially as well as my discernment of NTCC's spiritual pride being a stench in the nostrils of God led to my exit. I have never written about the abuse I have absorbed but am starting to feel inclined to for the sake of others who are now struggling that they may find the strength to leave the NTCC. That will be for another time. Now, back to the 94 conference. When I got there I noticed all these flags hanging around the whole building and I believe it was a new building also. I do remember vaguely the ashmore message on Eli. But one thing I will never forget is the last time I shook R W Davis hand which was at that conference. When I shook his hand I sensed my spirit telling me that after this year and this conference I was to remove myself from those who desired to Lord over me. As I shook his hand I said in my soul to him "I am leaving you". I returned from the conference and wrote a letter of resignation (I still have a copy today) and sent it in. The message I got was "we will have a minister behind that pulpit before it gets cold". I said "ok". I am kind rambling but Vics mention of the 94 conference brought back all these memories. If I remember right, I was staying in a tent at a campground down the road from the conference and one morning I saw vic and his wife also there and the amount of respect I had for them was huge cuz I knew what I had to do to get to that conference and to see someone else in the same boat was encouraging. I think I had about 10 bucks to live off of that whole trip.
Ok, on to Ashmore. I am sticking to my guns. I am hoping that he will make that giant step and come clean with a public apololgy, explanation and repentance but as I have said, God is the one who has to work it out in his timing as he works with him on his walk with the Christ. It may be next week or next year or never. In fact I tell you what I will lead the way as a ex minister in the NTCC. I publicly admit that my walk with Christ was being ambushed daily by the lordship style leadership of the NTCC. As I was buying into it I at times verbally abused my wife and my congregation. I slowly began to Lord over those who I were to minister to and at times endeavored to hide my sins. I erroneously taught that you must pay tithe to be saved as well as taught the exclusivity of the organization. I at times overlooked the spiritual pride of my peers at the expense of others. Looking back I admit I was young and dumb and had a high opinion of myself and higher opinion of my idols who were: Blumenthal, Asmore, Kekel, Davis and Marshall. I left the org cuz I could no longer stand the pride of my leaders, the practice of tithing in order for it to be funneled away secretly and the overall shallowness of biblical knowledge as well as the overall elitist attitude. I am positive there are those out there even in my small ministry that I have hurt, I am asking you to please forgive me for my spiritual blindness, you are more righteous than I. If you are one of those who had to scrape by just to pay tithe into this Amway style business, I am asking you to please forgive me. To those whom I have verbally abused or spiritually starved because I could not see outside the NTCC shallow interpretations of the Bible, I am asking for you to please forgive me also. In fact, I love the words I heard a ex NTCC minister say back in 93 "FORGIVE ME FOR THE FIRST 10 YEARS OF MY MINISTRY". If by chance you doubt my sincerity and you are one of those I have hurt please call me at 254-415-0105 or email me at zappertoy@yahoo.com and I will converse with you and make amends. I can assure you of one thing, I started out with NTCC with a pure heart in 1982 under Blumenthal in Hawiai and then after leaving bible school in 1985 I noticed the subtle change, I was more like Davis then Christ. From 1985 til 1993 I was in the battle of my life trying to serve God in this organization that was slowly taking the place of God, it was as if they were setting themselves on a higher pedestal then God himself as it pertained to my relationship with my Savior. In 1993 I began to take seriously the still small voice inside of me that was saying that I need to remove myself from these leaders. There was no Factnet and no support. From 1993 til 94 I prayed daily about leaving, it was just me and Jesus and I choose to follow Jesus and NOT the organization. I left in December of 94 and do not regret it in the slightest bit. I am serious and sincere when I say that I believe Ashmore very well may come clean but that it must be in God's timing in order for the trueness to be present in what he is doing and not just simply out of a duty or expectation. To all of you NTCC'ers if you need some encouragement to stand up to these leaders within NTCC or HOP I will pray with you myself, I live in the Fort Hood TX area and there is a HOP and a NTCC church within a 5 mile radius of where live, if you need to talk just let me know I will be glad to be a friend and brother. If you are hurting (I know how hard it is to hurt at the hands of those who are your leaders) and need someone to help or just listen, I am available for you. Bryan David Hill
Really good stuff Bryan. I'm not as optimistic as you are about Ashmore but I know where you are coming from. There are a lot of red flags with Ashmore and more people that have been abused by him are speaking out since we posted this letter. I believe that if someone like you could come on here and admit that you did some things wrong and that you wished that you wouldn't have made the mistakes you made, I believe that much more that Ashmore should come clean. I do appreciate your admission and especially that you publicly took steps to make things right with the people in your own ministry. I know that there have been others who have come forward with similar confessions and with apologies to people that they might have hurt along the way.
The ntcc taught it's ministers to jack people up. Many of the preachers I was under were really good at imitating the top preachers in the org by being inconsiderate. Many ministers bit the dust because they were not willing to do what was right. Doing the right thing meant doing things God's way instead of Davis or Kekel's way. Having a conscience is important. Repentance is an important part of being a Christian. I feel that Ashmore is doing the same types of things that he was doing in the ntcc, preaching, teaching and healing ministries, even casting out devils and these things don't assure someone a place in heaven. We are warned to beware of false teachers and to realize that just because they say Lord, Lord doesn't mean they are going to heaven. But we healed the sick in your name, we cast out devils in your name, we preached in your name. How do we really know when someone has passed from death unto life? It's a simple question. We have love for the brethren. We love the Lord with all of our heart and all of our soul and all of our mind, and we love the brethren. You can speak with the tongues of men and angels, you can have faith so you can move mountains, you can give your body to be burned, but if you don't have love, you don't have God, because God is love.
Ashmore has hurt a lot of people. Many of the people he hurt are Christians and people who trusted him above all others. I wonder if we are asking too much of him. I wonder if showing a little love towards the people he has hurt in the past is going to far?
Anyway, we appreciate you Bryan for leading the way. You have shown a true example that we were hoping to see in James Ashmore, but it's never too late until the final heart beat. My guess is that JRA doesn't feel the same conviction that you felt. I don't think it's in his heart to admit or own up to the things he's done. Maybe it's too much to ask. Maybe it's like asking Hitler to repent.
Don and Ange thank you for the scriptures and kind words. I am the anonymous that spoke of Gandy taking me before the leaders one conference. I don't want to sound all crazy but I read your comments this morning with scriptures while listening to the songs on your playlist. I felt God's love. It is what my heart has been desiring for so long. Again I am not trying to sound all religious just nice to hear God loves me. I hope this makes sense.
That makes perfect sense. Glad we could help.
You know, I think the borg leaders really enjoyed their satanic work of breaking up marriages. Sometimes I think they are targeting a marriage so they will have access to the woman without her husband being around to protect her.
Hey Brian, I didn't do it that year, but a couple of years before we stayed in a tent during conference there too. We were so broke. So approaching conference the following year, RW asked me in Graham if I really liked staying in tents. I tried to defend it, but he asked whether if someone were to give me $300 I might stay in a motel. I told him I probably would, and he told me to see him after class the next night. So the next night I was in the print shop burning a plate when class ended, and didn't make it over right away. Butler came down and I told him I'd be right up. He looked panicked. I think he might have come again too, and I told him I was about done. I went up, and DiFrancesco told me RW had gone home. So I walked over and knocked on his door. I guess my big mistake was thinking I was dealing with a normal, rational human being. Maybe he wanted to make a big production in front of others of giving me this money; I don't know. He opened the door, and I told him I was sorry for being delayed. He gave me a look of utter contempt, and didn't say a word. He reached over, grabbed an envelope, thrust it in my hands, and slammed the door in my face. I felt like ripping it up, but there was $500 in there. I should have stayed in a tent anyhow and just spent it on something else. That's the kind of jerk RW was.
Brian, I was not under your ministry but admitting to your part in NTCC abuses shows you are a real man. I hope all that were under your ministry find your words a healing comfort.
Joan B.
Keith Gandy. I never really knew him when he came to work in the office in Graham, so I invited him and his wife over after church. He had to stick around to count the money or something, so the women went ahead in our car to make ready, and I waited for him to finish. He said he needed to stop at his house on the cul-de-sac to get something, and on the way back, he noticed that there were some students hanging out by one of the dorms. He wheels in and starts barking at them like a brownshirt. "What are you doing out here? Do you all live in this dorm? You know there's no fellowshipping between dorms" These dudes were terrified, and it looked like their sphincters were probably quivering. They timidly explained that they all lived there. Then he noticed the sprinkler going and berated them for that because Kekel had forbidden it. But they assured him that they had received special permission. He jacked them up right there anyway, telling him that he was 100 percent behind RWD and would tell him EVERYTHING, so their story better check out and they better watch it. Total bullying. I was mortified that I had to go to my home and sit down at the same table with this malevolent fiend and make small talk. I should have jacked him up myself, but I never was the jacking-up type. But I sure stayed away from him after that. He audited one of my classes, and somehow I got the impression that he was spying for RW. This wasn't too long before we ended up bailing. He was a total tool. Supposedly he used to be a Mormon; talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire...
Good to hear from Veronica. We were right there with Ashmore, in the 1970s in BS. In fact I had roots in the tracks of Ashmore in Monterey, CA. My friends received blessings in New Monterey Assembly, and we both attended a certain woman's prayer meeting in Seaside, CA. This was way prior to going to BS from the Army. Then we get to NTCC and are told that we were only saved under RW's ministry? JRA why don't you recall the innocence and grace prior to the ntcc years? The true God was with us. Leading and loving, without ntcc. Please JRA, now publicly respond in true grace. I plead with you, recall God's true blessing without ntcc. Help these hurt sheep to heal. There are so many hurting sheep, and former ministers so chased off, that many resort to a hopeless lifestyle. God grant us the mercy, always
Reading this blog has confirmed to me, how many truly good people ntcc ran off. Like Julie, I wish to give hugs to all. One day in a new world by His grace, we shall meet and do that. So, better depart ntcc now to ensure your heart will be pure enough to see God later. The kingdom consists of innocent-as-children hearted people. Love to DNA. Your heart can truly heal from the past, given time and God's grace. Peace.
Vic, I can totally see that scenario with RW playing out, especially the whole look of disgust as he tosses the envelope and slams the door in your face. He was quite good at those looks of disgust. RW to me seems like a complex web of varying trains of thoughts. You never know what your going to get. He can preach about how good it is to take some time and be alone one day and another paint that same scenario as one of wasting time as the world goes to hell. I think it was he controlling attitude that got hurt when you were not johnny of the spot.
Gandy, oh yes Gandy. I was the one that had witnessed to him when we were in the 1/19 infantry at Schofield Barracks in 1982. I believe he did tell me that he was a Mormon. In my opinion he has always been somewhat of a kiss up to leadership. I for one dispise that. I had hoped he had changed but after reading what so many have said, it appears he has not changed and may of gotten worse. He is the type of person RW could call on to spy on you. To his credit, he at times can be (or use to be) light hearted to be around, in other words, not always to serious. I have been out for so long that I have to rely on those who have been recently in to relay a pulse of how things are now.
Does anyone remember brother Pena? He was in Bible School with me in 1985 in Graham. He is the only one who may of had it right. He was asked to preach on a Saturday night as a student. Now what you need to know about brother Pena was that he already had a prison ministry and he also fed the poor. While he as preaching he jacked up RW for telling him that he had to give up his ministry in order to be in bible School. He brilliantly spelled out what "ministry" was all about and that so called "Bible School" did not make you a minister but that being obedient to your calling did. He literally challenged RW to prove to him that God wanted him to not minister to the prisoners and feed the poor. He quoted the scriptures about "I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me".
He ended his message and we never saw him again. You guessed it, he was branded as being rebellious and a "independent spirit". Wow I really do not want to be in the NTCC leadership shoes on judgement day.
Vic said:
" I felt like ripping it up, but there was $500 in there."
DNA said:
Hey you got $500.00 from the grinch; you did better than most. You should have told him that "God loves a cheerful giver". I've heard of him giving to people before but it always seems like there were strings attached. We were all manipulated to give a large percentage of our net worth to the ntcc over the years and I can count on one hand the number of times I've ever heard of Davis helping someone out, and when he does it seems to be begrudgingly.
Joan B. Said:
"Brian, I was not under your ministry but admitting to your part in NTCC abuses shows you are a real man. I hope all that were under your ministry find your words a healing comfort."
DNA said:
We agree. That is definitely a step in the right direction and an example that others should follow. I would feel a lot better about Ashmore if he would come clean and show some transparency. I think others would too.
Vic said:
"He was a total tool. Supposedly he used to be a Mormon; talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire..."
DNA said:
Those are the worst kind and the most messed up in the head. There are a few people that I've known of that started in a different cult and ended up in the ntcc, or started in the ntcc and ended up in a different cult. If Gandy was a mormon, his mind was gone when he got to the ntcc, most likely. He already knew how the game was played and things like Salvation, Christianity and Love never factor in when you are consumed with manipulating others. There are others in the ntcc that are much like Gandy. I know first hand that Medrano was a manipulative jerk. I know Cyrius is also a big time brainwashed follower that expects everyone in his ministry to bow down before him. I remember that he used to whip his infant child continuously for long periods of time in the Servicemen's home. Any time that child made a peep that Cyrius considered out of line, he would thrash the poor baby. I should have called the police and that child should have been taken away from them by Social Services and placed in a home that had some semblance of love and human decency. In the long run all the whippings that were given to that kid didn't do any good, he bailed on the ntcc as soon as he was old enough to do so.
Brother D. said:
"JRA why don't you recall the innocence and grace prior to the ntcc years? The true God was with us. Leading and loving, without ntcc. Please JRA, now publicly respond in true grace. I plead with you, recall God's true blessing without ntcc."
DNA said:
RWD took something that could have been real special and he manipulated it for his own financial gain. He was a user of people and a user of God's plan of Salvation, to select willing good nature people that he could manipulate. I once considered people like JRA, John Rodrigues and Pop Gaylord to be pioneers of the greatest move on earth. At one time they all were laboring really hard and it didn't seem to be about money for them when they first started. I'm sure some were more corrupt than others and as time flew by and people were taken advantage of, they all had to turn a blind eye to what was going on.
While doing a search just now on google I found the very first Trumpet ever published. It had the Ashmores in the Philippines with their son Jerry who now goes by Larry because he's either ashamed or doesn't want his sin to be associated with the ntcc because he always defends them in spite of being kicked to the curb. Jones and the Rodrigues' were in Germany, The Armers had just gone to Ft. Campbell, Enfausto just married Maria Sanchez and Kinson got married to his new bride from Jennings, LA. I was thinking that must have been Chris, because I don't remember Debbie Johnson being in Jennings, LA. The Taylors were in Augusta and everyone seemed really fired up. Where was R-dub? Not a word was mentioned about him. He was probably sitting in his mansion, living large, and recovering from one of his many sexual scandals.
Many of us joined the ntcc back in this time when it really did seem to be real, but behind all of the blessings, behind all of the labor, behind all of the tithe and offerings given willfully, behind knocking on every door imaginable to get someone out to church, behind every fired up message preached and behind every scripture quoted the corrupt founder of the organization, his daughter and Son in law were orchestrating the whole circus, so that they could get filthy rich off of everyone else's labor. For many of these so called pioneers it became a struggle for power, and prestige. Others covered for people like Davis and Kekel. Excuses were made and double standards were created. Good people were removed if they became a threat and love, mercy and grace were replaced by greed, money and power. That's about all that is left in the ntcc now.
Brother D. said:
"So, better depart ntcc now to ensure your heart will be pure enough to see God later. The kingdom consists of innocent-as-children hearted people. Love to DNA. Your heart can truly heal from the past, given time and God's grace. Peace."
DNA said:
Thank you Brother D. We appreciate all of your contributions and we also are glad that you have always been there to help folks that are in various stages of finding their way back to reality and God. You did what was right and left the ntcc while so many others stayed and were drug down to the spiritual hypocrisy and cess pool that Davis existed in. You have definitely done your part and remained to help others awaken from the nightmare of being in a cult. It really takes an awakening to jolt a person into reality. Even when people realize that many others were deceived, it takes them even longer to realize what the ntcc is all about and where the leadership really stands when it comes to loyalty to man VS. loyalty to God.
Bryan Hill said:
"Gandy, oh yes, Gandy......In my opinion he has always been somewhat of a kiss up to leadership."
DNA said:
We just found Gandy's Facebook page entitled: "New Testament Christian Church of Jacksonville, NC. Full Gospel Church"
Gandy sure knows how to extract money out of GI's. They were bragging about how they got a good deal on a new grand piano. The Salesmen agreed to give them $2,000 off so they could buy the piano for $4,665.00. All of those brain washed Marines are cheerfully bringing their money to Gandy so that he can say, look how God has blessed our ministry! Click the link just above this comment that says "Gandy's Church" and see the money that drips off of the servicemen's home and church to include the furnishings and the amenities. Arrow down and look at some of the pictures. I wonder how many Marines Gandy had to dupe, and how many of them gave away years of their own futures so that servicemen's home could be afforded, and how many marines it will take to sustain that lifestyle for Gandy and his wife. Gandy is living large.
There is one picture of Gandy with his arm around a little girl that almost made me want to vomit. I'm not saying that Gandy has ever been implicated in child molestation nor am I suggesting that, but I would hope that parents in Gandy's church or any other ntcc church would not let their children out of their sight. It reminds me of what Julie and some others that we have heard of went through at a very young age.
The Servicemen's homes also could have been a great idea but they are run by money grubbing tyrants and adulterous men and women and sick men with unnatural affections that drove them to commit unthinkable things right in the Servicemen's homes instead of responsible Christian men and women have a burning desire to see souls saved and that are in it for their love of God and people instead of money and numbers.
Bryan Hill said:
"He ended his message and we never saw him again. You guessed it, he was branded as being rebellious and a "independent spirit"."
DNA said:
Good for him. Not sure If I've ever met Bro. Pena, but I like him. More people need to stand up to people like Kekel in the same manner. The ntcc ministry only reaches out to people that are able to give and those who give a lot are the only ones that seem to excel in this system. Once a person's resources are used they destroy their name and reputation, leave them without hope and then find someone else with money that they can manipulate. They are like a black hole that keeps getting bigger and bigger as it devours planets and solar systems, or like the swirling vortex of an F-5 Tornado that gobbles up mobile homes, houses, barns, grocery stores and even high rise buildings or anything in it's path.
I wonder if Kekel really has the authority to have a preacher removed from a local church, and what the process is, or how long it takes. It takes a long time to evict someone out of a house and it involves a hearing where both sides are heard by the judge before he makes a decision and even after that decision is made it often takes weeks or months to actually remove someone from the premise. The evicted party is never charged in a criminal court unless they refuse to leave after the entire process is served and the police come to physically remove them. Even then if they leave they are not charged as criminals. Some of the local pastors out there ought to see what legal rights they have. Maybe getting them to show up at a few court houses and dragging their lawyers into court might be a good way of exposing the leadership for their excessive lifestyles and over charging for rent and history of zeroing out escrows. Who knows, maybe the court would require the organization to come clean with it's finances before evicting a local pastor out of his church. It's worth looking into, especially if it's a servicemen's home and you live in it. They can't legally kick you out of your place of residence without a court hearing and going through the eviction process. If I was an ntcc servicemen's home director, I would would tell my congregation that the ntcc leadership is corrupt and we are not going to make it easy on them. I would change the locks on the home and church and If Kekel or any of his flunkies showed up at the home or church, I would have some of the strongest brothers in the church bounce them off the property and tell them to take their grievances to court. It would take them at least two months to get you removed from the Servicemen's home and probably longer than that if you have a good case. You can use that time to save some money and get a more reasonably priced place and in the mean time your are not enabling the ntcc royalty to continue to grow wealthy off of the backs of GI's who just want to serve God and their country.
Looks like Ashmore has let all the NTCC go. Good for him!
It is not my job to judge his past, but to rejoice in his future.
I know I allowed myself to be influenced by RW's ignorance. I have asked God to forgive me for that.
Thank God for FREEDOM!
DNA said:
I know Cyrius is also a big time brainwashed follower that expects everyone in his ministry to bow down before him. I remember that he used to whip his infant child continuously for long periods of time in the Servicemen's home. Any time that child made a peep that Cyrius considered out of line, he would thrash the poor baby. I should have called the police and that child should have been taken away from them by Social Services and placed in a home that had some semblance of love and human decency. In the long run all the whippings that were given to that kid didn't do any good, he bailed on the ntcc as soon as he was old enough to do so.
Wow, I was in Wahiawa HI when sister Cyrus was pregnant in 1982 when the were helpers under Blumenthal. I remember how she was practically forced to work each and every day during her pregnancy right up to the day she gave birth. If she was given time for herself or had any time off it certainly was not advertised. Would the timing be right, is this the son that grew up and bailed on NTCC?
Bryan Hill said:
"Would the timing be right, is this the son that grew up and bailed on NTCC?"
DNA said:
Same son, only son they had, his name is David. He was being raised in the Servicemen's home in Augusta as an infant in 1983. The dates you gave for Alice Cyrius pregnancy would make David about one year old at the time he was getting whipped relentlessly by his Dad. Davis used to teach that children were sinners and that even babies being born in sin would go to hell. Whenever a child cried it was because he/she had the devil in them and that spirit had to be driven from them. Cyrius would whip that baby for what seemed to be hours and that baby would not stop crying. You can't make a baby stop crying by hurting it more. The Tiemans used to spend hours wearing out their son whose name was also David. He was more like a todler, probably two or three. I used to think that the Tiemans son was possessed with the devil because they whipped him so much and it never did any good. That child would throw temper tantrums in public and would act out every chance he got, and they would whip him over and over and over. He also rebelled as a Teenager but is now considered to be a prodigal son who returned from his life as a Jazz musician and instead of being given a fatted calf, he was given his own ntcc church, up and running with a nice building.
The most important lessons I've learned in life while in the ntcc, was how not to do things. How not to raise your children. How not to treat the brethren. How not to treat people. How not to treat your wife. How not to waste your money giving it to people like Kekel so they can get rich. And the list goes on.
It must grieve the Cyrius's that their son doesn't want to service God. He loveth this world more than the things of God
I was in the Army with Gilbert Pena. He was a great guy. I took him to the store in Tacoma where he bought a pair of Stacey Adams wingtips in preparation for BS. I think he never showed, if I remember right, but years later he appeared in St. Louis, and I took him around the garment district shopping for clothes. He had engaged in the ministries you mentioned in the interim, and was way beyond the typical NTCC zombie. He ended up leaving too. About six years ago, Mike Kekel emailed me that Gilbert died of a drug overdose down in Texas, remarking that "apparently he had some demons." I suspect he was using this news trying to make me afraid of some kind of judgment on my own life for resisting the org, but whatever.
Vic said:
"About six years ago, Mike Kekel emailed me that Gilbert died of a drug overdose down in Texas, remarking that "apparently he had some demons." I suspect he was using this news trying to make me afraid of some kind of judgment on my own life for resisting the org, but whatever."
DNA said:
That's interesting. I wonder if Mike gave you all of the information and if it was accurate. More people die from prescription drugs than they do from overdosing on illegal drugs.
If he did OD on illegal drugs, it seems like MCK is glorying in the man's death. I would think that a true Christian and Minister would contact you to see how you are doing and as the title suggests, offer some ministerial help if in fact he thought you needed it. To throw that in your face seems petty. The fact that Pena had a free spirit and good direction in life makes me wonder if you got all the details or if Mike even had all the details. Maybe it was drug related. Maybe he got caught in the cross fire of a drug addict or maybe someone drugged him, or maybe he did OD. Whatever the case may be, Kekel seems to be a long way from home if he has to notify you out of the blue of the death of a friend just to try to scare you with judgement.
DnA wrote
That's interesting. I wonder if Mike gave you all of the information and if it was accurate. More people die from prescription drugs than they do from overdosing on illegal drugs.
How can Mike point his sticky fingers at anyone?
He didn't really throw it in my face; he just let me know. I can only speculate about his motives, and they may not have been bad at all. Now that I read it again he didn't actually say Gilbert died of an overdose, although it does seem implied by the "demons" remark. I did find an online obituary, but it doesn't give any details about cause of death. This was back in January of 2007. Gilbert's last name was actually Pina:
"Sorry for contacting you and being the bearer of sad tidings, but thought you should be informed. Gilbert Pina was found dead in Dallas, TX the other day. I informed Roy King and Jesus R, and I'm not sure if any others may need to know. More info, Gilbert Pina was helping inner-city teens in Dallas to get off drugs. Only problem was he had some of his own demons, and no one knows why, he was simply found, aleady gone. He and I were in the same battery in A 2/4 FA, Ft. Lewis. Bro Smalls lived in the SVC battery, one floor down. We always went to church together, and they (GIs) called us the three wise men, heheheh. If they had only known....."
working in drug/prison ministries has its own share of danger. drug dealers do not like preachers tampering with their customer.
mike hasn't gone out into any work. he was probably jealous of pina
Vic said:
"Now that I read it again he didn't actually say Gilbert died of an overdose, although it does seem implied by the "demons" remark."
DNA said:
Maybe your right, but I sure don't see any evidence of demons. Maybe Mike supposed he had demons just because he left the ntcc. I guess we'll never know. I have no idea, but I do know that Kekel is a dirt bag and I think it wouldn't be a lie to say that he has more demons than Pina ever had. From Mikes email it sounds like Pina was helping inner city teens get off drugs. Not sure if he made up that part about Pina having demons or if he was privy to some info that he didn't share with you.
As far as throwing it in your face, perhaps I was wrong. I can't seem to figure out why he would notify you of this, but who am I? I just have opinions and that's about it. Some of my opinions are educated by patterns that Kekel exhibits and how he treats people. But maybe he was just being friendly to you and notifying you since you knew him in the Army. Kind of hard to see it that way, but you knew Kekel much better than I did.
Veronica said...
Looks like Ashmore has let all the NTCC go. Good for him!
It is not my job to judge his past, but to rejoice in his future.
DNA said:
I would like to rejoice in his future, and I really do hope that he finds peace with God. I know back when you were his contemporary and he was a preaching machine he had the respect of everyone. Many of us forfeited the best years of our lives in the 80's and 90's because we believed in Davis, Olson and Ashmore. There were some really good people in the ntcc that were hurt and run off over the years by Ashmore. I do believe everyone should be able to repent and a lot of people have repented and found peace in God. That usually involves making things right with the ones you hurt.
We feel that until Ashmore makes some sort of effort to become transparent in his ministry and own up to his part in the ntcc, it's dangerous to blindly trust him. We all made that mistake with Davis. I've never met you but I've heard of you and have a great deal of respect for you. I know you used to teach at the bible school which was unheard of for anyone other than Tanya in the latter years. I also know that people who knew James Ashmore for many years feel the exact same way you do. I don't want to see anyone parish, but over the years a lot of people have stated that they have been hurt directly by Ashmore. I don't think they all are lying and I'm not confident that he's changed. The ntcc was and is very secretive. They don't answer for anything that they do. They destroy people that need restoring and up until Davis died Ashmore was his hatchet man. I would hope he changed but in order for me to believe it, it's going to take more than just him leaving the ntcc. Many others have left and started their own ministries so they don't have to share with the Kekels. I thought Rev. Barnes was one of the most spiritual guys I ever met when I knew him in Korea. I don't want to believe that he is in it for the money or that he is using people the way that the ntcc does, but by all accounts from people who have been burned by him, he is a lot like the ntcc leaders. I don't believe for a minute that Denis can be trusted and he left the ntcc with ministers and members in tow.
Some of us have survived the ntcc experience and it has taken years to put the broken pieces of our lives back together. To many of us it seems foolish to blindly trust someone who was instrumental for so many years in hurting people and running them off. I hope I'm wrong but I'd rather be cautious than to follow someone who is teaching one thing and living another. Those double standards are what make people have to look at someone's feet to see which way they are walking. You can't believe their words only, there have to be acts of kindness and fruit of God's love in their life.
I sure hope Bro. Pina died with the righteousness of Christ. Only God knows but I have my faith that his faith was in tact. I can't help but to believe that by emailing you of his death and demons only served to stick a knife even further for those who have left the NTCC. They are hung up on proving a point when it is possible, in that way kinda like an opportunist. What many in the NTCC don't realize is that they face a real danger in facing God as worshipers of their organization and leaders and sect of religion. The prodigal was closer to the Father than the elder son, the one who beast his chest and said I am a sinner was closer than the one praying aloud thanking God he was not like other men.
You sorry people love to accuse people of things just because you think you see something is wrong with situation. How do you know how my marriage ended? I didn't steal another person's wife he handed me her by not taking care of my now wife. My first wife walked out on me emotionally that was her fault get your story. Just like I shouldn't have to answer to you about my life neither should jamesz Ashmore.
Jerry is Helen's son not James' son
" walked out on me emotionally"
that's a loaded phrase.interesting how those in support org ntcc pipe to folks about getting their facts straight. ntcc pastors stand up and lie about people all of the time.
We got a comment on our blog from L.D. from someone who was supposedly pretending to be Larry Duran. This morning we found a Facebook message from Larry and in that message he stated that L.D. was not him. He also stated that he feels God's grace is sufficient to cover all that he or any of us have ever done.
This is more of a response than we got from his parents and because Larry was man enough to confront us directly, we took down our response and we are publishing this comment. Larry has told us that he has no axe to grind with us but that he also feels that we invoke his name on our blog to embarrass his parents. I understand that and perhaps we do, because there was a definite double standard. Davis was involved in many adulterous affairs and covered them up, and this involved JRA running people off. JRA wont man up, and confront the people who have been hurt by him. I don't care about the sin. I don't care about the actual sins of adultery. That is something that people involved have to make right with God. I care about the victims of adultery and Davis had quite a few of them come forward, and many that didn't. Others shared enough to verify what Davis was all about. The ntcc always felt that they didn't have to answer for anything. They mistreated people and condoned adultery. Not all the victims have found their way to repentance and restoration, yet the ntcc continues to destroy lives one at a time.
Who am I to argue with Larry that he made things right? I actually was really glad to hear that and I hope it's true. God knows. I will not turn a blind eye to the ntcc and the way it treats people and I will not give James Ashmore a pass like RWD got. We are not putting him on trial but we are just asking him to be a man like his son and confront the people that have claimed you hurt them.
Jimmy Swaggart got caught red handed and he admitted that he was wrong and to this day he has people that still follow him and have forgiven him. James Ashmore has been accused directly by multiple witnesses that seem to have no reason to lie. I believe those witnesses and we feel they have a right for their voices to be heard. Others may not, but I know too much about the ntcc and Ashmore to turn a blind eye and ignore everything like we did in the ntcc. We don't want to see future victims. It's difficult for these people to come forward. All of them got choked up and had a difficult time telling us what they went through. They were not just a bunch of angry individuals that were spewing out hate, but they had to relive this stuff as they were telling us about it. These folks were really broken up about what Ashmore did to them and they got no help from the ntcc, whatsoever. The burden of proof falls on Ashmore. Be a man and answer for what you have done. Stop hiding behind your YouTube videos and 1.5 million dollar church building. The more Ashmore remains silent the more I believe his accusers. I believed them from the get go, but as Ashmore will not publicly answer and has no desire to be transparent about anything, I feel that he's guilty just like Davis, Kekel and Olson.
I said in the last comment:
"We are not putting him on trial but we are just asking him to be a man like his son and confront the people that have claimed you hurt them."
We are one of the voices who in the past have claimed that Larry was run off by JRA for adultery. Larry confronted us and now claims that he is a Christian and God's grace has covered his past. This is how normal people respond. Larry to his credit didn't deny that he did anything wrong, but he says that he made it right. Good enough. I have respect for him that I didn't have before because he cleared that up. I might not agree with him on a lot of things but I respect that he confronted us and let us know where he came from.
We also have been a voice against Ashmore because of all the testimonies that were shared about him on this blog and others. We represent the people who were unable to represent themselves. Many of the victims that have implicated James Ashmore's involvement in the destruction of their lives have done so on our blog. We are asking JRA to be the man that his son is and confront us and the people he hurt on our blog. I originally sent JRA a facebook message that was never read, and then went public on our blog because we felt the people that have accused him have done so on our blog. Paul was not afraid to face his accusers and he faced them in Jerusalem after being warned by his own disciples not to and Jerusalem was a much more hostile environment than Rome or anywhere else. Nobody is going to hang Ashmore on the Gallows for coming clean on this blog. As I've stated we would even be happy if he addressed only the financial transparency issues even though we think he should make other things right. Ashmore is definitely not in the same class as Paul who sacrificed his own comfort so the church members could prosper. He got an actual job.
There are other messages that people wrote in response to the L.D. comment. Because that L.D. comment didn't come from L.D. we are not going to publish those comments that were written in response to it. Larry writes much better and his written vocabulary is much better than that of L.D. so there you have it, we are attempting to show a little fairness.
I am glad to hear that he addressed that comment someone left with you on this blog. What frustrates me is the double standards NTCC has on adultery protect some and throw out others. I have seen it where the ones that repent get thrown out and the ones that sweep it under the rug get to stay.
The fact that you shared that he did message about this should show people that you are not here to have war with people. You are here to get the truth out, bring healing to the wounded, not let people sweep their sin under the rug, be a voice to those that feel they have no voice, and an opportunity for those that have done wrong by people to make it right. Now you may word my last sentence a little differently. I was just saying how I see it.
I don't believe people are beyond the forgiveness of God. I just have a beef with people that create victims or have apart in creating victims and they go live their lives like they had nothing to do with it. I don't care if it was more one person's fault than the other or someone else put you up to it. You should make right your part. Are you going to walk away from those you have wounded or are you going to be apart of their healing process? It is that simple.
Hugs,
Julie
Very well worded Julie, you summed up my thoughts perfectly and I definitely agree with everything you said. There are those that will say, I don't owe anyone an explanation or I don't have to justify myself to anyone and than there are people who hold themselves accountable and allow the healing process to work. Just saying that you left the ntcc or that you have made things right with God is a start but true Christian leaders will make things right with the ones they hurt.
You can get out of the ntcc and throw stones at the ntcc which they probably deserve, but such were some of you. The blogs have been a place of healing for many. People who never were allowed to speak can say what they want to and this liberty brings healing to their souls. People find out that they were not alone in their suffering. There are some people in the ntcc and that have got out that I deeply love. Some of them were ministers and they got out after 20 to 30+ years, and they all have admitted that they were wrong in what they preached and most all of the sincere people have apologized to the people they have hurt. Both Ange and I have used our blog to apologize to folks. I know I hurt people in the ntcc. We did a blog post entitled letters from the past where a very good friend asked me what to do because Denis was jacking him up for doing things that weren't even a sin. He wanted to keep his salvation but he felt he couldn't do it if he left the ntcc. I didn't do anything to help him. I told my Pastor who also cared a lot for this guy but we were both brain washed and wouldn't go against Denis. I read his letter and posted it on this blog and I cried because this guy was wounded deeply and didn't have anywhere to go. I know exactly how he felt and so do many of you that are reading this. When you leave an ntcc church you do it in hopelessness and it seems to many that they are leaving God because of the false teachings we absorbed in our brains. I apologized on our blog because I didn't do anything to help this brother and he suffered the price that I eventually suffered. Leaving the ntcc is just the beginning of suffering for many people. There is a long process of working things out and blaming yourself over and over that never seems to end.
Many of the bloggers to include Chief, Vic, MDR, GS/DS The Pelfreys, Bryan Hill and many other ministers have admitted their part in the ntcc and in many cases apologized to the ones they hurt. What makes Ashmore so great and so special that he can't ask for forgiveness or apologize? I'm not trying to embarrass him or Helen, we are trying to get them to step up to the plate like the rest of us and do the right thing.
Throwing the bodies over the fence don't change the fact the bodies use to be bury in your backyard.
How can you be a good rescue crew member when you won't even admit you were one of the teammates of pirates that ambushed people leaving many casualties behind you?
Believe me humbleness heart goes a long ways to healing the souls of many and what greater healing is there than this.
Hugs,
Julie
brother Ken, repentance and reconciliation are two different things, I do not hate Ashmore for the things he did to me, and pray for him also. Ashmore was a mean hateful person. and the more I stood up to him, the better he was toured me. now he may have repented, and praise God if he did. but with this blog, and you know he probable reads the blog, Ashmore can not claim ignorance on finding Julie, myself and all his other victims, because we are here, and he can reach out to us, through this blog. there is no shame in asking for forgiveness, but to hide behind repentance and claim it covers all his wrong doing, is shameful when is able to make it right with us.
Over the last couple days, I've spoken with Larry, the son of Helen and James Ashmore. His name is Larry, even though he used to go by Jerry in his bible school years. I incorrectly thought he changed his name to avoid association with the ntcc. I really appreciated his openness and willingness to talk. We had some good dialogue on Facebook and he cleared some things up. There are some things that we disagree about and some things that we agree about. After speaking with him, my opinion of him changed. In fairness to him, I never knew him and any opinion I had of him was based on what others shared and what I observed that he previously shared on FACTNET. We have made comparisons on our blog that had to do with him leaving the organization and what he did happened over 30 years ago. He admitted that what he did was wrong and hurtful. Others have shared that he was disfellowshipped and not welcome back because his actions reflected poorly on JRA and the ntcc. We compared that to everyone turning a blind eye to RWD for his infidelity and not running him off or disfellowshipping him. I am not saying this to open wounds but rather I want to be clear that Larry has made it clear that he repented and he has forgiven us for any problems that may have been caused within his family by our public comments. We didn't ask for forgiveness but I also don't want to hurt the man's kids for something that happened ions ago. We have tried to be honest and I don't think we blogged about anything that was incorrect concerning Larry, but if I hurt him in anyway or his family on this blog, than on this blog I publicly apologize. Like I said if he asked for God's forgiveness, who am I to argue or disagree. That's a personal thing and that's why Jesus died.
I wish others would have the same honesty and willingness to share as Larry did. He shared a lot about his parents and how he believes they are not as bad as we think they are. I still disagree and feel that too many have come forward for him to ignore them and not answer for those who say they have suffered because of him. We might always disagree about this. I personally feel that if JRA would address these issues and attempt to make things right it would bode much better for him than leaving things unresolved.
I agree Bro. Ken and that's why we have not jumped on his bandwagon. We have given him every opportunity on this blog to make things right and so far he has refused to do so. I think people like you and Julie and Lisa would be more willing to forgive him than he is to ask forgiveness or admit he is wrong.
We are here because there is a need for us to be here. This blog post was written to Ashmore because we feel he could repent if he chooses to and make things right with the people he has hurt.
A little bit of honesty and communication goes a long way, and I felt like I made some ground with Larry, but this is a completely different subject and something that we feel can only be addressed by Ashmore. His refusal to address it and remain secretive tells me that he is either in denial or afraid for this to go public.
The ntcc is the same way. They will not be accountable for their actions. Thank you Brother Ken for your willingness to confront Ashmore and even forgive him if he repents. Confession is a necessary step to forgiveness. To be forgiven by God you must confess your sins to Him. Rom 10:9 Rom 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
If someone sins against you and asks for forgiveness we are commanded to forgive them also.
Luk 17:4 "And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him."
1Jo 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
These are good scriptures that we all could live by. In all instances the forgiveness comes after the confession, and this applies to all, including Ashmore.
There are people in the ntcc that have sinned against me and none of them have asked for forgiveness. It is really hard to forgive someone who doesn't ask, but I've learned to do that. My forgiving them even without them asking doesn't necessarily do anything for them but it does for me. I struggled with this for a long time and finally gave it to God. I still think that if a person knows that he has wronged someone and also knows a way to make it right with that person, and doesn't do so, it's dangerous ground. I know that we can't always make everything right that we did before we came to Christ, but if it comes to our attention that we hurt someone and we have the opportunity to make it right but don't do anything about it, we are throwing away a chance for both parties to heal. That's how I feel anyway.
Kenneth Macpherson said...
"brother Ken, repentance and reconciliation are two different things,"
"I fully agree Ken it truly is two different things. I feel that one Ashmore may fear is if he reconciles there will be others that he had a part in some way of hurting that possibly would go public and he doesn't want that."
Hugs,
Julie
Don and Ange said.....
"This blog post was written to Ashmore because we feel he could repent if he chooses to and make things right with the people he has hurt."
Julie says.....
He can repent and makes things right but I don't except it anytime soon.
Someone with good intentions tried to do a 3-way between him and I recently thinking he just needed more encouragement to apologize. He just said she needs to get pass the past quoted scriptures and hung up. This person fully excepted him to deny it and was shocked with the response.
Hugs,
Julie
That's just cold Julie! Apologies dont cost anything
Don and Ange said.....
"It is really hard to forgive someone who doesn't ask, but I've learned to do that. My forgiving them even without them asking doesn't necessarily do anything for them but it does for me. I struggled with this for a long time and finally gave it to God. I still think that if a person knows that he has wronged someone and also knows a way to make it right with that person, and doesn't do so, it's dangerous ground. I know that we can't always make everything right that we did before we came to Christ, but if it comes to our attention that we hurt someone and we have the opportunity to make it right but don't do anything about it, we are throwing away a chance for both parties to heal."
Julie says.....
Is forgiveness hard? It can be. Like you said when given to God he can make all the difference. I believe Ashmore in asking forgiveness could be healing to many that have been hurt while in NTCC. There are so many that have not be able to release to God what has happened to them and seeing someone ask forgiveness from another could be step needed to heal many.
Maybe he is on a good journey with God now. If that is true and great. The best way to show that is to try to heal the wounds of those you have had a part in creating.
I am not bitter or even angry at Ashmore. I am just concern for people that don't want anything to do with God because of his actions.
I don't dwelling on what I have suffered but flashbacks and anxiety attacks do come back from time to time. In those times I do have to take to the Lord all over again.
Hugs,
Julie
When I this of the blessing this blog as been to me this scripture comes to mind.
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; Isaiah 61:1
It can't happen without the Spirit of God. People you don't have to be bound anymore that prison door is open and you can be truly free. God did not give you a heavy burden to carry. It is a man made burden.
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Matthew 11:28-30
Jesus loves you and no one including yourself can change that fact.
Hugs,
Julie
So somebody with good intentions made a conference call with Julie, ken and ashmore?
But ashmore hung up on all of you after quoting scripture?
So you don't expect ashmore in apologizing or asking for forgiveness anytime soon because ashmore is affraid that not everybody is gonna accept it and may take him to court or sue him?
God still does. Don't let a controlling and harsh pastor who abused his authority or anyone bring you down. Man lets you down not God.
Anonymous said:
"So somebody with good intentions made a conference call with Julie, ken and ashmore?
DNA said:
I took that to mean that a third party tried to arrange a 3 way conversation between Ashmore and Julie, thinking he needed more encouragement to apologize. What I got from it, and Julie you can correct me if I'm wrong is that Ashmore just told you that you needed to get over the past and then he quoted a few scriptures without denying anything and hung up. I assume it was Julie, Ashmore and the third unnamed party that were on the phone and the third person was shocked at Ashmore's response and becuase he expected Ashmore to deny it and he didn't. That's what I got from it, was that how it went down Julie?
"And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." Philippians 2:8
Humility toward God is akin to the fear of God: It begins with a high view of God’s person.
As we see God in His majesty, awesomeness, and holiness, we are humbled before Him. In every occasion in the Scriptures in which man was privileged to view God in His glory, he was brought low or humbled in His presence. Moses bowed to the ground and worshipped; Isaiah cried, “Woe is me!”; Ezekiel fell face down; John fell at His feet as though dead. Even the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders in heaven of Revelation fell down before the throne of the glorified Lamb.
Humility in every area of life, in every relationship with other people, begins with a right concept of God as the One who is infinite and eternal in His majesty and holiness. We are to humble ourselves under God’s mighty hand, approaching every relationship and every circumstance in reference to Him. When relationships with people are good and circumstances are favorable, we are to humbly receive these blessings from His gracious hand. When people are mistreating us and circumstances are difficult, we are to humbly accept them as from an infinitely wise and loving heavenly Father.
This humility before God is basic to all our relationships in life. We cannot begin to experience humility in any other relationship until we experience a deep and profound humility in our attitude toward God. When we are conscious of our (sinful) creature relationship to an infinitely majestic and holy God, we will not wish to selfishly compare ourselves with others. And to the extent that our awareness of our lowly place before God is an abiding one, we will avoid the temptations of pride and competition.
-Jerry Bridges, The Fruitful Life
Brother Ken to anonymous, I was not the one that was part of the conference call with Julie. I have never said I would sue him or wanted to sue Ashmore. I have always stated I have forgiven Ashmore but there are consequences for his actions that he needs to make wright. the best thing that happened to me was I never gave up my first love, and that was to become a minister, and be about saving all souls, not just those that have money to make someone rich. in fact 2/3s of my church does not even pay tithes. how ever I do know about a brother that I was in the service men's home with and was in the BS together, He called Ashmore, and I believe he did not get a straight answer from Ashmore either. I say either because if you were to read all the blogs, there is a nother brother that said he called Ashmore and he told him That I brought things on my self, with the way Ashmore treated me, really, Ashmore was the one who lied to Davis about Harold, and was covering up the Homosexual activists of him and the fact he said He was leading people to hell. 1) how does a so called man of God, lets a person who is suppose to be a believer in Christ get away with saying he is leading people to hell? 2)He comes after me when Davis called Ashmore a liar while I was still in the office, he gets caught in a lie, and his ego is bruised in front of me. so he came after me with a vengeance. You call that a real man of God?
Anonymous, Don and Ange have it right on the three-way call. Ken was no party to this. Sorry for not being clearer on that.
Hugs,
Julie
brother Ken, Julie I want you to know, how much I love you, and will stand by your side as a sister in Christ. people want to berate, be little the things that has happened, but an less they have gone through it they have no idea what is like to live through it, and yes you can live a life past it, but it does not help when you go through stages of depression that come out of no where, or when you have nightmares that you think you got past. Its easy for people in NTCC to say they don't believe, or say they saw nothing, when they see someone else being treated the way we have, I'm not saying there wrong, but they can easily put it out of there minds thanking God, I'm glad its them and not me, being ripped in front of every one. I can't tell you how many times I heard that while in NTCC, glad its so and so and not me. its the out of mind out of sight syndrome. but it does not take away that it did happen.
I've tried to make it as easy as I could on Ashmore to come clean. It was probably foolish of me to think that he would deal with this on our blog. I believe that when people act guilty they most likely are. Now we use words like allegedly on our blog to protect us from getting sued and we try as hard as possible to be fair to folks when it doesn't cross the line of being hurtful to someone who already has suffered enough. In the ntcc many of us were tried, convicted and sentenced without any representation at the word of people like Ashmore and Davis. I purposely eased off a bit hoping that Ashmore would at least address a few of the issues that many people have with him.
My opinion of Ashmore, and I believe it with all my heart is that he is the same as he was in the ntcc. I think Davis, Olson, Ashmore, Johnson, Kekel and just about every one of the board members are completely corrupt. I was hoping that when Ashmore left he would also try to make things right with the many people he has hurt but I have neither heard nor seen any evidence of this happening.
The ntcc is the same way. They don't ever acknowledge anything they have ever done to hurt people. It's like 5,000 people just made up a bunch of stories against them because they are all of the devil. Give me a break. I do believe in coincidences but not hundreds or thousands of them. The ntcc is a corrupt money making enterprise and the leadership doesn't care about the souls they trample on as long as the money keeps flowing in.
I personally didn't think that Ashmore would come clean and confess to anything. I was hoping that there was some humility left inside of him or just an ounce of decency and willingness to make things right, but it didn't happen.
For those of you out there that feel like Ashmore has changed and become a new man, good luck if you decide to pledge your loyalty to him. He's no different than Kekel or Davis. The only reason he doesn't call out the ntcc for the many illegal practices that they are involved with like profiteering and lying to the IRS is that they have the goods on him also. It's mutual and they all are privy to what Davis was involved in and what Ashmore was involved in. Ashmore can call the ntcc the great whore all he wants but he will never come forward with any useful information against them because ratting people out is a two way street.
Do you think Davis had the goods on Ashmore? Do you think if Davis did that he would pass that info on to Kekel before he died? Ashmore wouldn't dare leave the ntcc until Davis died, and he still won't spill the beans about what he knows because it's a 2 way street. Kekel and Ashmore have both been implicated in many scandals, but neither one of them can let the cat out of the bag because they all have dirt on each other and that's just the way Davis wanted it.
Am I just wanting to embarrass the Ashmores? No I'm not, I want them to be honest like everyone else who has been hurt by them. People come on this blog and spill their guts. They have no reason to implicate themselves in such horrible stuff, yet they do it so others don't have to suffer the same and what do they get for their courage and honesty? They get harassed by people who have no idea what it's like to be a victim of cult mind manipulation and sexual abuse. It's one thing to waste your money and mistreat your children as you are manipulated to do so, but when kids grow up in the organization and don't even have a chance to normal human decisions to be with a man or woman of their choice and they are violated as children or married off to sexually deviant people when they are still children they have stolen the innocence that can never be given back.
As far as I'm concerned, people like Julie, Ken, Lisa, Lori and Pam are heroes for speaking up and not allowing people like Davis and Ashmore to get away with the abuse they have dished out. There are others also that have come forward but they haven't been as brave and haven't been willing to share what they went through publicly. They needed support, but couldn't bring themselves to share what they had been through. But there have been literally thousands of people who have shared a little here and a little there about what they went through at the hands of the ntcc leadership, Ashmore included.
I don't care how great Ashmore preaches, if he heals people or if he has changed his tone. If he can't love the people he spent most of his life hurting, if he can't apologize or repent, if he can't do the right thing when it comes to the basics of Christianity, he has no business being in the ministry and those of you that want to believe in him, do it at your own peril.
Hey Don,
I for one have never known of any NTCC preacher to ever show the true humility and owning up to being wrong about anything. This really does stem back to the spiritual pride I abhorred back when I was in. Their own pride of their denomination and pride of themselves being legends in their own minds must stink to high heavens. Of course, God could still move on Ashmore but if he is in fact hardening his heart toward the humility that comes with shedding the old skin of the organization, well, then he has a long hard road ahead. He has been woo'ed into addressing his allegations and by not doing so only opens the door to more extreme measures such as more people coming foreward and possible legal action not to mention the online documentation that is building and accumulating, all in the face of his new endeavors outside the organization. But hey, I have always been for the underdog so I hope he steps up and owns up.
That sums things up pretty good Bryan. I couldn't have put it better. I guess I was hoping beyond hope that He would do the right thing. I think he would be more respected if he was honest and upfront. Even if he asked people for forgiveness without admitting his involvement it would be a small step. I know it's hard to coerce a person to do things when there are legal implications but in spite of that I was hoping he would at least address the financial matters, that wouldn't get him in trouble because the IRS won't even go after small fish like Ashmore. You have to have a mega church like Creflo Dollar or Kenneth Copeland. You can be an outright crook in the ministry and unless you are stealing millions from the IRS you wont even hit their radar. Unless the IRS changes their policies on investigating non denominational religious organizations, cults like the ntcc aren't even in danger but rather protected by the IRS.
The Blood Moon doctrine all by itself should send up a red flag and warn you to avoid Ashmore's church.
Jesus said in Mat. 12:39
"But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:"
There is also a theory that was brought forth by John Hagee based on end of time false prophesies that a series of four lunar eclipses that started on April 15, 2014(tax day) and end on September 28th, 2015, is now the same as the blood moon in Revelation. This a bunch of hogwash and proof that Ashmore and his associate pastor Meinecke are using end of times preaching to create panic in people so that they will be more willing to give their hard earned cash to them. It would require total ignorance to believe in this doctrine. First you would have to believe that the rapture already took place and then you would have to believe that Revelation chapter 6 would have to take place 4 times, one for each blood moon, but you would have to ignore the fact that the sun wasn't turned black. There would also be stars cast down to the earth and islands and mountains being moved out of their places. All the kings of the earth, the rich men, the great men and the mighty men would be hiding in the rocks begging for the mountains to come down on top of them. The Pale horse and him that sat on him whose name was death would be released to kill a forth part of the earth with the sword, hunger, beasts of the earth and death.
A simple question. Is all this happening now? The bible only talks about one blood moon and not 4 in succession, so if Meinecke and Ashmore actually believe this stuff, you'd have to be an absolute nutcase to follow them.
Those who research this blood moon stuff, find that there have been 50+ so called moons. They just pick and choose 4 that corresponded to certain events, etc. And then try to make a correlation. There are many YouTube videos refuting the 4-only blood moon teaching, evidently Ashmore did not fully look into this. Imagine JRA not digging into the truth of a matter? Now that's foreboding of a concept.
Sorry for coming to the party late on a previous question but I have noticed that in Ashmore's videos he comes across in several as being very effeminate. I wouldn't doubt there is a reason for him being involved in so many issues/accusations of gay conduct. It's better to accuse than be caught in your own brokeback ways...
Anon Mike
Bro. D said:
"Those who research this blood moon stuff, find that there have been 50+ so called moons."
DNA said:
And that is exactly what they are, "so called moons". We don't have to look for signs because no man on earth knows when the Jesus is going to return. These end of days preachers are wasting time trying to translate every event in the book of Revelation as if it's going to help them prepare.
They are adding to the bible by creating a doctrine that doesn't exist and calling eclipses blood moons just because they happen on some day that has historical significance. These guys are typical peddlers of false doctrine. They find three scriptures in the bible that talk about the moon turning into blood, and they disregard the fact that the sun is also going to be turned into darkness, and they disregard that this event is only supposed to happen one time, and they teach people contrary to sound doctrine that they should prepare themselves for this lunar eclipse as if the rapture had already taken place and the four horseman of the Apocalypse had already been released.
If you are in Ashmores church and you believe this, what have you done with the basic knowledge you have from reading your bibles? Those of you who were in the ntcc for decades and read your bible from cover to cover every year, how do you believe false doctrines like this? Is it the healings? Is it the so called Miracles? How many times do you have to be burned before you learn that Ashmore and his side kick Meinecke are basically doing the same thing that they did in the ntcc? Follow the money trail and you will have all your answers. If the money trail can't be followed, that's because it is hidden. Why would you hide a money trail? Because you don't want people to know how much money you are making off of them. Stop giving people like Ashmore your money and you will find out what they really are like. If Ashmore had to get a job or sacrifice his elaborate life style, he wouldn't be able to function. Fortunately he has enough brain washed suckers following him that he'll never have to worry about money.
Anonymous said...
Sorry for coming to the party late on a previous question but I have noticed that in Ashmore's videos he comes across in several as being very effeminate. I wouldn't doubt there is a reason for him being involved in so many issues/accusations of gay conduct. It's better to accuse than be caught in your own brokeback ways...
DNA said:
If anyone else in the ntcc were involved in the way Ashmore was, they would have been run off by Davis. All it took for Davis to get rid of a person was guilt by association. Davis would rail against ministers for being alone with women and not having sex with them. He would say they must be homosexuals. There have been many reports that Ashmore sounds effeminate. He's been associated with receiving gay foot massages. And brother Ken who was never accused of being gay, was encouraged by Ashmore to leave the organization, while Ashmore harbored two confessed homosexuals in the St. Louis area moving them to different churches to protect them. Davis had to do the dirtywork of having Peters and Batson removed because Ashmore wouldn't. Brother Ken shared that Davis believed him and told Ashmore that Ken had never lied to him about anything.
People can believe what they want, but none of us would have gotten away with that. Ashmore was a huge money maker and whatever he had going on the side was ignored because they didn't want to have to face the fall out if Ashmore left back in those days.
D/A what does a "money maker" mean exactly? I'm assuming it means having a church full of tithers but I've never seen a church in NTCC that was that full regardless of who preached there.
I wasn't there from the beginning though.
Anonymous said...
D/A what does a "money maker" mean exactly?
DNA said:
Ashmore could fill a church and so could Denis and Barnes. Blumenthal, Marshall and a few others could fill a church with tithe payers. Denis probably was the most successful of them all. He brought in so many tithe payers he could pick and choose. He once told someone that he didn't encourage the soul winners in his church to bring out married people because they had too many financial problems.
Keep in mind, your average pastor in the ntcc, never does fill up a building and only has enough tithe payers to barely support these local churches. The borg is set up so a lot of the money is filtered to the organization headquarters in Graham where Davis had complete control over it and now Kekel does. The local churches get to keep a little bit to survive on and it costs a lot to pay for a building, utilities, insurance plus your own home rent, your car and gas and personal expenses. It's a big struggle for most ntcc pastors just to stay afloat.
The way that the money is filtered up to the ntcc headquarters is through pastor tithe and church tithe, world missions funds, and zeroed out escrow funds, conference offerings and revival offerings going to the guest speaker which pays tithe on it to Graham.
There is no transparency anywhere and no accountability for where the money goes or how it's all spent. They will lie about it, but they will not show you by the books where the money goes. You have to follow the money trail. Where is the majority of the money being spent in the ntcc. Swing by Kekel's estate and ask him for a tour and you will find out. Tell him you are a tithe payer and you have a right to know where all of your tithe dollars go. Of course, he doesn't want you to know so he will turn into the devil on the spot and you will have to endure his anger and malice toward you for thinking you have the right to know where your money goes.
D/A
Thanks for the response, I was never pastored by any of them. I never met Denis but I hear he's a gem.
Any status on Ashmore responding to you?
Thanks for your comments and contributions. We haven't heard anything from Ashmore. We really didn't expect him to answer so I guess it was just wishful thinking on our part. All the videos he's done and the healings and the miracles are great and many people think that they must have changed and they must be alright now. My opinion is that they need to address the basics of Christianity and that includes being transparent about their finances and making things right with the ones they have hurt in the ntcc.
They haven't done anything in my opinion to earn anyone's trust. To me, it is a huge mistake to follow the Ashmores just because they appear to have changed and seem like good people. Ashmore is not going to publish any videos of him saying anything questionable. He came out on one of his videos and used weasel words and cult cover-up jargon to explain his thoughts on tithe, but he clearly didn't discourage anyone from paying it. Trying to get these cult leaders to give you a straight answer to your questions is like trying to pull teeth from a Cobra. "Do you teach tithe?" That's a yes or no question, but he tap danced around it and didn't really give a clear answer. It sounded like he had a lot of tithe payers in his congregation and he didn't want them to stop paying their tithe.
Post a Comment