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The ntcc Taught This in a Class Without Giving Credit to the Author. The Daughter of E.W. Kenyon Sued Kenneth Hagin for Plagiarism and Hagin Settled out of Court for an Undisclosed Amount of Cash. Surely The Family of Kenyon Could Have a Case Against the ntcc Hucksters if They were made Aware of their Plagiarism.
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| E.W. Kenyon - The originator of the Word of Faith Prosperity Movement |
First of all, let's take a look at E.W. Kenyon who is considered to be the Originator of the Word of Faith movement. E. W. Kenyon was originally a Methodist who back slid, or had a crisis in faith, and later became a Methodist minister and later became a Pentecostal minister. Kenyon's principal disciple was Kenneth Hagin, Sr. who is the 'recognized' father of the Word of Faith movement. Hagin's principal disciple was Kenneth Copeland who is recognized as the 'unofficial leader' of the Word of Faith movement. wiki
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| Word of Faith Hall of Shame |
Proponents of the doctrine include Oral Roberts, Kenneth & Gloria Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, Jerry Savelle, Charles Capps, Bill Winston, Creflo Dollar, Charles Nieman, Hobart Freeman, Benny Hinn, Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer, T.D. Jakes, and Marilyn Hickey, among others. Theopidia
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| This is the Home of Joel Osteen, who Tanya Kekel and Many other ntcc Preachers Idolize and Quote on their Facebook/Twitter Pages. |
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| This Mansion Belongs to the Richest Religious Huckster in America, (Kenneth Copeland), who is Considered the Leader of the Word of Faith Movement Based on the Same Doctrine That Davis Taught from the Plagiarized Work of E.W. Kenyon |
Kenneth Copeland is the richest preacher in America and has a net worth of over 700 million dollars. Copeland is said to be 7x richer than any other preacher in America. Kekel's 7x hotter campaign during the ntcc's last convention, should have been labeled 7x richer because that is the goal of Kekel, to get richer and richer. Kekel is using your fear of hell to generate wealth. The JDS doctrine is all about healing and prosperity. In this class Davis taught that you don't need health insurance because you have health assurance, yet how many preachers have died in poverty in the ntcc, leaving little of nothing to their families. Davis received the best hospital care money could buy before he died and don't think that Hasty, Briggs, Ramirez or any other preacher hasn't been to the doctor or emergency room to receive treatment for injuries or sicknesses. The reason they don't want you to buy health insurance is because that is money that you could be giving to them and if you pay for health insurance or life insurance you will be less able to make them rich.
The Jesus died Spiritually doctrine teaches that Jesus literally died spiritually and that Jesus went to hell as part of the atonement for sins. Many doctrines that the ntcc teaches are based on supposition, rather than facts. Jesus said: "It is finished" John 19:30. The atonement for our sins was finished when Jesus died on the cross. While on the cross, Jesus said, "This day shalt thou be with me in Paradise". The ntcc teaches that this is a question rather than a statement, but either way it suggests that on that very day Christ went to Paradise or Abraham's bosom where he led captivity captive. This is not the same place as Hell. But where does the bible actually say that Jesus went to hell to suffer for our sins? To find this answer you will need to purchase a copy of E.W. Kenyon's book, New Creation Realities, because you will not find it in the bible, unless you do some serious scripture twisting and gymnastics. This JDS doctrine also suggests that Jesus was born again in hell which would imply that Jesus needed salvation.
This whole doctrine was something that just sprung up during Kenyon's ministry kind of like the holiness movement which all of the sudden became popular some 18 to 19 hundred years after Jesus died on the cross but was never mentioned as a mandate during all the years leading up to this point in time. In spite of all the supposition surrounding this doctrine, it remains a lot like tithe doctrine. There is just no New Testament scripture that actually states that Jesus went to hell. They like to use Acts 2:27: "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." This they call a prophetic quote from David, but even this scripture does not say that Jesus went to hell.
So why is this doctrine so important that Davis made a special class to indoctrinate his brainwashed minions with this teaching? You need not look any further than prosperity teachings of this doctrines chief supporters. There is another R.W. that preached this doctrine whose name was R.W. Schambach and his life and death mirrored that of R.W. Davis. He lived from 1926 to 2012 dying at 85, while RWD lived from 1929 to 2014 also dying at 85. Two R-dubs that both preached a lot of the same stuff. If you listen to R.W. Schambach on Youtube (bride of Chuckie impersonation), he sounds a lot like RWD only his voice is higher pitched. They both like to scream and point their fingers at people.
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| Was R. W. Schambach a Sham Like R.W. Davis? |
Here are some bible school notes that were inspired by Kenyon's work and plagairized and taught in RWD's Realities of a New Creation class:
His soul was in hell to deliver our soul.
His spirit was made sin.
Anytime one asks the question, "I don't know if I'm saved or not", they are not saved. If they question, "They are not healed", then they do not have the baptism of the Holy Ghost." Most people know what sin is and we will strain it out of our life. If not we call God and his word a liar.
When death slew him, in reality, death slew itself. Death was killing itself.
HE BECAME ONE WITH SATAN THAT WE MAY BECOME ONE WITH GOD.
He became one with physical and spiritual death and sickness.
If you are still sinning you are not saved.
When he became sin on the cross, he became mortal, then he was subjected to death and the devil. His body went to the grave but his soul went to hell. If I don't except the fact that he went to hell, someone has to go to hell.
He was the one that did all that was conquered and was made one with the devil.
Salvation was not finished when he was on the cross.
He did not pay the price for mankind. He did not pay the price for souls. He has to go to hell and suffer for mankind.
He became the absolute monarchy of the universe and the master of the underworld.
Do you believe that he was justified and declared sinless? I do. If you do not believe that, you can not be saved.
So where is all of this doctrine found in the bible? Can anyone show us? It can be found in Kenyon's book called New Creation Realities which Davis plagiarized so bible school students could sit in awe and think that they were being let in on a secret that God hid from the rest of His believers for centuries. In R-dub's Realities of a New Creation class, this is how Davis justifies this new doctrine that he is introducing to his his bible students at the brain washing academy:
This is the first time I taught this class since 1969. When I got back from the Philippines the Charismatics started up. God dealt with me and I felt the need for real character in our lives. Pride is a preacher killer. Pride is a preacher's wife killer. Just get lifted up a little, it will destroy people. This is the reason why I did not teach the class. There has to be real character before you can be taught the foundation. If the Holy Ghost and God tells me that any of you are getting lifted up, I will quit. I would say that most of you don't know this material. Most of you don't know the Word of God. I will prove it in a little while. We must know the Word of God. There is a reason for this. Jesus is not begotten naturally. There is a lot of the Word of God that we do not know.
Here we have Davis in a classic brain washing beat down; telling people that they don't know the bible and implying that if they disagree with him, they are being lifted up in pride. He knew this doctrine was a farce when he presented it to his followers. "If the Holy Ghost and God tells me that any of you are getting lifted up, I will quit." First of all, I doubt if God is going to speak to the hardened heart of Davis, and if God did, Davis wouldn't listen. Has anyone ever known Davis to repent of any of his deeds? He said he would prove it in a little while, but there is no proof because it never existed. Can you see all the bible school students with their mouths open in fascination and awe as they idolized Davis for letting them in on this mystery? The proof never came because it never existed. That would be just like Davis saying, "I'm going to prove tithe is biblical and then reading 1 Cor 16:2 which has nothing to do with tithe". Davis was a scam artist, plain and simple. You might praise Davis and hold him in high regard but Jesus calls people like Davis "Vipers, False teachers, Whited Sepulchers" and so on.
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| This is a Copy of The Coversheet of Mathew Webster's Bible School Notes For "Realities of a New Creation" which was Plagiarized by R.W. Davis |
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| Davis Contemplates Stealing Kenyon's New Creation Realities Concept and Pushing it off on His Own Brain Washed Followers as His Own Work |
We are not publishing this to get into a doctrinal argument with anyone. We are just sharing these plagiarized notes so that people can make up their own minds. We also have a bunch of notes that Bryan sent to us of actual scriptures that refute this doctrine. In our opinion this entire doctrine is about generating more income for the ntcc elite class of super spiritual board members of whom Kekel is chief. Follow the money trail. Follow the doctrine. All that they observe and preach, that do, but do not according to their works for they preach one thing and do another. They compel you to live one way while they live another way. They expect you to follow them but they are not following Christ. They have their own false doctrine and they expect you to believe that it came from God. They are nothing more than a bunch of religious con artists and they will take you for a ride if you let them.
148 comments:
"They preach that if a believer is not healed it is due to his lack of faith."
I have always found this to be a particularly heartless and cruel teaching. Like kicking someone when they're down.
Example:
"Yes, you have cancer but it's your fault you're not right with God. If you were right with God you could be healed."
Ridiculous!
Hey preacher, even infants get cancer. It's not sin, its sickness.
Go tell the little 5 year old dying of a tumor that it's because of sin. Get out of here with that stuff!
As far as I'm concerned this is worse than the teaching that if you pay tithe and give in offerings then God will prosper you. That if you're poor it's because you're not right with God. Actually you're poorer if you can't afford to pay tithe and you still do.
And the following fact proves they don't even really beileve it themselves: We were discouraged from bringing the poor and unemployed to church. Why? I mean if they pay tithe from what little they have won't God prosper them?
Jesus Himself condemns them:
Luke 21:1-4 (KJV)
21 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.
2 And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.
3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:
4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had."
StillSmallVoice said...
"They preach that if a believer is not healed it is due to his lack of faith."
I have always found this to be a particularly heartless and cruel teaching. Like kicking someone when they're down.
DNA said:
This is so true and you make some very good points here. This is what the ntcc is all about. They expect you to have the faith to get healed or for your family members to get healed and they will even pray for you in public. If you don't get healed it's not because or their lack of Faith, but your lack of faith always comes into question.
It's the same thing with prosperity. "Just keep serving the Lord and paying your tithe and God will bless you". As you continue giving large amounts of money, there is not much left. You are giving your money to these hypocrites who are getting rich. The more money you make, the more causes there are to contribute to. I know this for a fact. Anytime I started to get ahead financially in the ntcc, more offerings would be taken up for every reason under the sun. I was an E-6 and cheerfully giving my tithe and offerings to the ntcc, but financial blessings that I was receiving were equal to that of an E-1. There were E-1s in the Army that were wiser with their money that had more to show for it than I did. Now I didn't complain about this, nor did I even notice it. I notice it now because we all know where the money is going, but in those days we didn't have a clue. It worked the same way for those in the ministry. Ministers were expected to make things happen and they had to accomplish this through receiving tithes and offerings. They had to impress the board members and Davis. This could only be done with money. They would be praised for money and numbers but only money really pleased them. If they fell short financially, it was always their fault. If they couldn't meet certain financial challenges it was because they couldn't put it together and the only way they would every be recognized as an achiever by their idols was to influence their congregations to give more money. If the Pastor didn't have enough money to pay the bills, it was always because of that Pastor's lack of faith. How demoralizing is that to the local pastor and his congregation?
Most of the ntcc's healing ministry was more about showmanship than anything else. When people had sicknesses they would ask for prayer and of course the ntcc preacher would pray for them. If it was a minor illness the church member would feel better because that is what was expected of them. If they didn't feel better and stop sniffling the ntcc preacher would say something like, "just continue to believe God for your healing and eventually it will come". Or, "The manifestation of your healing sometimes takes longer because God wants to you to prove to Him that you really believe", which makes you the scapegoat if the preacher doesn't have the faith to believe God for your healing. I've never seen anyone healed in the ntcc of anything more than a slight cold. I believe the reason for this is not that people don't have faith but the ntcc is full of corrupt people in high places and as they will so often tell you when it suits their own purposes, "God can not bless sin". Think about it. If you are part of the church in Graham and you go to Phil Kinson and ask him to pray for you, do you really think that God is going to bless the prayer of a man who frequented a whore house and tried to cover it up, destroying souls in the process? Whose sin is hindering the faith to get healed? I've never seen a local pastor take the blame for someone not getting healed. It's always the church member's faith that is lacking.
Come on people. Open your eyes. You are in cult for goodness sake! Ashmore prayed for Julie when she was afflicted with Cerebral Palsy and her wicked parents claimed that she was healed. They would try to teach their daughter to pretend like she was healed so they wouldn't look bad, because nobody is going to blame a child for not having enough faith to get healed. They said that when she was supposedly healed one of her legs grew or something like that but when the symptoms still manifested themselves, Ralph and Joan scolded Julie and told her hide the fact that she was not healed. This wicked couple treated her like everything was her fault so that they wouldn't look bad. But how can you expect a miracle when Ralph was raping his own daughter? According to Carly St. Clair, Joan admitted that Ralph St. Clair lost his license for six months for having sex with his own daughter. Julie was treated like an outcast by everyone because of this. When Julie became old enough to break away from all of this abuse the St. Clairs no longer acknowledged that she was their daughter and most people were surprised that they even had a daughter when Julie shared her testimony on our blog. How was she supposed to be healed by the prayers of these wicked people? She has scars that are far deeper and I believe that when God finally takes her home, her reward will be equal to those who are tortured for Christ. I know that there are many who refused to believe her but God knows.
What the ntcc teaches and does to people is truly wicked. Davis taught this New Creation Reality doctrine for a reason. It was a sure way to get the most money out of people while those in charge were not accountable for anything. The objective was not just to blame the church members for everything but it was also to make the church members blame themselves. This doctrine falsely justified their wealth while those who made them wealthy blamed their own faith for their own poverty. What a scam.
What if these victims were all telling the truth? What if Julie, Ken, Pam, Lisa, Lori and Fontenot's x-wife and the Morenos were all telling the truth? What if the people who Les Rinehart interviewed were telling the truth about Davis's adultery? What if the thousands of voices that were heard on the blogs were true? People already know that much of it is true and they admit it. Why do people still make excuses for the ntcc board members and abusive pastors? They'll say, I know that Davis was an adulterer, a liar, and a con artist but he had a lot to do with my salvation so I admire him for that. Wake up people! People are so enamored with Ashmore that they forget the role he played for 40+ years in the ntcc. Ken, Lisa, Lori and many others have shared how Ashmore treated them, but now that he's out of the ntcc it's like nothing ever happened and he is not held to the same standards that everyone wants to hold Kekel to. It's all mind boggling. All of these wicked men are idols to ntcc'rs and many X-ers alike.
I missed the "New Creation Realities" era; we were in Philadelphia when he broke that one out. I have a copy of the Kenyon book collecting dust around here someplace, but never got around to reading it. I'm sure Rear Wheel plagiarized that just like he plagiarized Dake. And Napoleon Hill, which is where he got his Advanced School of Theology material. I have read a lot of Napoleon Hill, and I can verify that the "apostle" carefully filtered his teachings. Napoleon Hill taught that success was available to all who would fix a definite chief purpose in life in their minds and gain the cooperation of others to the same end. However, his definition of success incorporated the principle that it was only obtained legitimately by refraining from infringing on the rights and property of others, and it also included as a chief component beneficence and generosity, the rewards consisting in the satisfaction of doing so more than monetary gain. He explicitly cited the Golden Rule as the avenue to true success.
There is a fascinating breakdown in The Law of Success of how revivalists manipulate crowds through hypnotic suggestion, and the methods he described exactly mirror those to which we were exposed. My opinion is that RW used that information to his benefit and our detriment. Check this out:
"Modern psychology has firmly established the fact that the greater part of the phenomena of the religious "revival" are psychical rather than spiritual in their nature, and abnormally psychical at that. The leading authorities recognize the fact that the mental excitement attendant upon the emotional appeals of the "revivalist" must be classified with the phenomena of hypnotic suggestion rather than with that of true religious experience. And those who have made a close study of the subject believe that instead of such excitement tending to elevate the mind and exalt the spirit of the individual, it serves to weaken and degrade the mind and prostitute the spirit by dragging it in the mud of abnormal psychic frenzy and emotional excess. In fact, by some careful observers, familiar with the respective phenomena, the religious "revival meeting is classed with the public hypnotic "entertainment" as a typical example of psychic intoxication and hysterical excess."
Hill goes on to analyze and explain the theory and methodology of crowd psychology, and what he describes is exactly what RW employed. RW likely encountered Napoleon Hill's writings while he was a salesman, and it appears that he realized that he could hijack and pervert these methods to deceive others into abandoning their judgment to follow him. It sure worked.
What Vic says is true, when you're young and hungry for God and you're not familiar with the church world you really are led to think someone like or RW Davis is bigger then life. I am so glad I learned to study and not rely on being spoonfed buy a bunch of shallow want to bees. I remember R W and others getting agitated and irritated when you asked any questions about scriptures in the Bible. I'm sorry I thought that's what you were there for, I didn't know I was peeling back the onion and making you uncomfortable.
I have never understood why some get healed and some don't. So many theories and explanations, but I know God heals.
My wife has been healed of several things both in NTCC and out of NTCC. I remember one time she was healed by God, when Davis and Johnson prayed for her. I was going to take her to a clinic and I saw them out in Davis's yard and I asked them to pray for her. They did and God healed her almost immediately. I don't want to go into details, but it wasn't anything small.
While at another church, her womb was opened and we were blessed with children. No one laid a hand on her and the preacher was asking if someone needed healing and they prayed over the entire organization. She accepted it, felt this warm feeling in her womb and she was immediately healed.
My son was healed at birth of a potentially bad birth defect. It was simply amazing to see such a miracle healing, there is no other explanation.
God is amazing, no matter who prays. Of course, there are those who prey on others, but God can and does use anyone.
Anonymous said: "I have never unnderstood why some get healed and some don't"
The simplest answer is the placebo effect.
If is a scientifically proven medical fact that the expectation of healing can and does cause the body to heal itself. It can be quite powerful at times.
But in the same way a placebo won't help with a severed limb neither can faith healing. Only an insane person would, if their arm just got cut off, drive to the church for the "man of God" to pray for the bleeding to stop and the artery to heal itself. That would be ridiculous! So why is it different when it's something invisible that's wrong? Because it's easier to believe when you can't see it and consequently much harder to verify.
Nevertheless, given that it is the expectation of being healed that is the key component, it wouldn't matter of it was Donald Duck or R.W. Davis that prayed for you as long as you strongly believed in the efficacy of their prayer. Nor would it ever be an indication of the healer's "walk with God" if there was healing.
Just a reason based alternate opinion rather than superstition. Believe what you want
That's not what RW said. He cited an example to us once of the instantaneous healing of a guy whose arm was totally crushed and mangled, hanging by shreds of tissue. I suppose that account falls into the same category as those of the angels he claimed to see, or the voice of God he claimed to audibly hear, or the kid over in the Philippines who was born deaf and started hearing a few seconds after he spit on his fingers and stuck them in his ears, or how he drove across the state on an empty tank of gas. Tall tales from a chronic liar. We were so brainwashed we lapped it all up...the power of mind control!
There are many instances of Miracles taking place in the bible. In fact if you believe in God, it's impossible not to believe in miracles. The only miracle I ever seen in the ntcc involved the disappearance of money that was collected from the Saints. Once it left the local church, it literally disappeared. Of course we thought it was going into the work of the Lord, but little did we know that the work of the Lord included mansions, Cadillacs, Recreational Vehicles, and many other luxuries that none of us would ever see in our ntcc lifetimes. The real miracles were very seldom manifested because Davis and many of those he surrounded himself with were corrupt. I don't believe that divine healing is a superstition, nor do I believe that people that believe in God can't lay claim to His promises. I think that the creation is a miracle in itself. I don't believe that we all evolved from single cell organisms after a big bang came out of nowhere. I believe that it's 2016. What happened 2016 years ago that rebooted the world's calander? Jesus happened.
That being said, there will always be con artists and hucksters like Davis and Ashmore that create a spectacle that deceives people. Has anyone ever seen Kekel perform a miracle? It's funny how Davis, Ashmore, Olson and Johnson will pray for someone and when that person gets healed they will regale the congregation with tales of the great faith they had in years past. But when a person doesn't get healed, it's the persons fault for not having enough faith. I personally think it's opposite. The person that got healed had faith and received healing in spite of the crooked leadership and those who didn't get healed were hindered by the knowledge of the outright hypocrisy of those that prayed for them. However corrupt they may be, this doesn't make God any less powerful and if a person believes, why is it so hard to give the credit to God for their healing? Life itself is a gift and we only get one opportunity to live it to the fullest. I personally think that believers should give credit to God even if their healing came through a doctor or a medical procedure. We live and enjoy life because God has given us life to enjoy. That's my belief, and it is every bit as substantial as anyone else's opinion.
I don't actually think RW knew much about the believer's position in Christ. He always preached how bad the sheep were. He knew nothing of real faith. One cannot preach what one has never experienced. He preached that sheep were dumb and had to be prodded, pushed, manipulated. He acted as though God's sheep were RW's own. I dare say RW never experienced the fullness of new creation love. He knew it existed but could not give it because he did not have it. All NTCC has left are the externals of Christianity. This can happen to any denomination. Of course God calls men to rise up and carry the torch of truth. God does use youth and imperfect people, but rarely hypocrites, but then, He can speak through a jackass as well. (e.g., Namaan's donkey). So God uses NTCC and Kekel as an example of how not to be. Its so clear, isn't it?
Not sure why, but two of Brother D's comments are not showing up. They show as published but perhaps they are in limbo. I will publish them as new comments with the Name/URL feature temporarily until they show up or can be recovered.
RW used so many other churches and preachers as he went up the ladder knowing full well they would be ejected and jettisoned as soon as he didn't need them. That spirit is still there and is one thing Kekel is unable to jettison itself. Payback. What a person sows, they reap. Hallelujah, our God reigns.
I recall the first mental manipulation in 1973, Verna did the work of pushing soldiers to go to BS. RW had to boast that he never asked anyone to come to BS. He in his preaching made you feel that you could not serve God unless you went to BS and became a ntcc preacher. This is true. His sermons in Tillicum were scorching and extremely manipulative. Pop Gaylord fell under his spell. Even the Gaylords who lived God, had a fussy spell of you pushed their buttons the wrong way.
I figured it out. The other two comments were left on the previous thread. My bad. Oh, well, you all get bonus comments from Double D, which is always a good thing. That's what happens when the moderator wakes up at 3 am and blogs when he should be sleeping.
I honestly don't see how they'd can call it a Bible COLLEGE, they say stuff like the whole JDS heresy and nobody bats an eye. I mean the whole going thru the bible verse by verse is a joke. You can read a scripture about Jesus walking on the shore of Galilee and the teacher would say "here we find Jesus walking on the shore of Galilee"-Well no $&@$ EINSTEIN. With all the resources on the internet all you have to do is Google "what is the JDS heresy" and there ya go. Besides that you have all kinds of commentaries Greek dictionaries concordances you name it there's even a hard drive call the Puritan hard drive with over 15,000 books on it why would anybody subject themselves to sitting in a class with someone spoon feeding you what you already know and you're paying them to do it. just Google is it in the New Testament that we are taught to pay tithe and see what you come up with.
Don and Ange said: "There are many instances of Miracles taking place in the Bible."
Once when my son was very sick, I had to rush him to the ER. I prayed on the way. He needed surgery. He ended up with the best surgeon. Was that God? I think so. I didn't ask the surgeon if he was a Christian and I didn't care. Sometimes God is subtle.
In the Bible there are miracles, yes. A sea was parted, the sun stood still, the dead were raised. Jesus performed many miracles. That was Jesus and its a giant leap, to say the least, from believing that Jesus turned water into wine and believing a preacher that claims to perform numerous miracles as Vic shared that Davis claimed to have performed. Miracles by their very nature are RARE or they wouldn't be miracles. Not all that glitters is gold.
And shouldn't we be cautious of taking the Bible too literally lest we end up trying to cast demons out of our children, handle rattlesnakes or beileve taking medication is a lack of faith.
How many warnings are there in the Bible to take heed, be not deceived. Practice discernment. Examine fruits. Jesus no doubt knew that Christians by their nature are innocent and trusting, almost like children. They are easily manipulated if they allow themselves to be.
Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil
Skepticism and questioning is not a sin, its heathy. It's a responsibility.
Matthew 24:24
“For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.”
Matthew 7:22,23
"Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
Was God "using them" if He never knew them? Not according to Him. So what were the many wonders done in His name? Fake.
So if a so called "man of God" claims to have raised the dead or walk on water...yes I'm going to question that and it's not a reflection on my faith. For this is how they manipulate us, as soon as they are able to get us to believe that doubting them is doubting God...they own our heart and mind.
To rub your filthy wealth in front of people is despicable.
I have nothing against the super rich who've done something to earn it vs. steal it from the people they're supposed to be helping.
Mike
Vic said: "Tall tales from a chronic liar. We were so brainwashed we lapped it all up...the power of mind control!"
Exactly. I don't for a moment believe these accounts of mighty miracles. It doesn't surprise me that he would lie. I recall my pastor once mentioning it's okay to lie as long as it's for God. I doubt he came up with that little gem himself. I'll tell ya, it sure explained a lot!
Don and Ange said:
"That's my belief, and it is every bit as substantial as anyone else's opinion."
Allow me please to explain what I mean by superstitious. There is religion and there is reality. Being a Christian isn't religion. Religion doesn't save.
But religion shares all the negatives of superstion. Fear of the unknown. Fear of death and hell. Fear of being punished for bad behavior. Believing in the power of priests. Believing it on face value when men claim they talk to angels or make the blind see. Practicing rituals and certain behaviors in the hopes of pleasing God.
We are not given the spirit of fear.
su·per·sti·tion
noun
excessively credulous belief in and reverence for supernatural beings.
I propose the idea that in NTCC Davis was revered as a supernatural being. Am I wrong? Think about the awe he was held in.
Gal 1:8
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed"
Now think about this. Paul is saying that if we were at conference and there was a blast of light and an angel appeared behind the pulpit and preached any other gospel he is not of God.
Did Davis preach any other gospel?
I think so. How much isn't Bible? So much.
But what's sad is I wonder how many would line up to drink the kool aid if that's what the angel was passing out.
Just because someone claims something supernatural happened doesn't mean it did. Especially when the claim bolsters their status and reputation. Second, if something supernatural happened it may or may not be God.
That's the danger of superstion. That's what I meant. Superstious people are prone to believe anything.
Here in Oregon there is one of many odd cults that had an abusive, controlling leader that put a curse on the followers to the effect that great doom would befall the sheep if they strayed from his teachings after his death. He also died. The place remains fear-ruled. The fear of man brings a snare. When we were in our 20s it was to be expected that we would fear the tirades of RW, as he bloviated from the/his throne, er, pulpit. But now we see in retrospect that there was a man haunted by his own past, fear-filled, not faith-filled, spite-filled, not so Spirit-filled. The brash, mean-spiritedness of ntcc is astounding and alarming. But WE have fled to CHRIST for refuge FROM the sense-ruled bunch.
One time in conference during an ordination service, RW prayed a curse on those ministers if they left their calling. Creepy.
StillSmallVoice said:
"But religion shares all the negatives of superstion. Fear of the unknown. Fear of death and hell. Fear of being punished for bad behavior. Believing in the power of priests. Believing it on face value when men claim they talk to angels or make the blind see. Practicing rituals and certain behaviors in the hopes of pleasing God."
DNA said:
That is a very good perspective and I agree with you on this. I might have misunderstood your point earlier but I'm definitely with you on this. I think that the quandary that many people find themselves in is that they have a lot of difficulty distinguishing the difference between Christianity and religion. Religion is definitely superstition by nature. On one hand you have people that are extremely intelligent that are Catholics and they believe in worshiping statues and participating in a whole bunch of crazy ordinances because a man tells them to do so. If you look at just about any denomination out there you will find rules that are made and dictated by man, and people don't even give an ounce of thought as to why they follow these man made dictates issued that have little to no foundation in biblical principles. Now, I do believe that there are people that are misled in these groups or cults that are Christians. I know for a fact that there are Catholics that put the ntcc to shame. They practice the basic elements of Christianity every day in their lives. They love their neighbors as themselves and do not go about trying to condemn others for their beliefs. They pray and study and give. They care about the downcast and down trodden which the ntcc looks down their noses at with disdain and disgust. But people that focus on the rudiments of false doctrines are lost and superstitious. Your average Baptist might be a hypocrite but they are angelic beings in comparison to Davis, Olson or Kekel.
Religions center around money, greed, and the desire of a religious huckster to be praised among his/her followers. That's what Davis was all about and that's what Kekel is all about. Each religious nut that creates a new religion has to make it different from every other religion so they can condemn all others. This allows them to feel like they are the chosen ones that God has singled them out from all the rest to be the last move of God upon planet earth. People in turn follow because they feel like they a part of something exclusive and wonderful. The more scriptures they twist to support their rules the more people feel like it's of God and not of Man. They ignore the things that don't make sense and focus on the things that set them apart from every other person who claims Christ as their Savior. This exclusionary religion strays from the basics and defiles the gospel. The simplicity of salvation and Christianity are replaced by superstition. For example, Children hinder the work of the Lord so lets all get neutered. Or, To the pure, all things are pure, so it's okay to commit homosexual acts in the Servicemen's home. Or, if I bring tithe payers to church, my rewards will be great in heaven.
StillSmallVoice said:
"I propose the idea that in NTCC Davis was revered as a supernatural being. Am I wrong? Think about the awe he was held in."
DNA said:
I believe that the ntcc has it's roots in idolatry. People worshiped the ground that Davis walked on. They absolutely looked at Davis as a super Apostle or even as the 24th elder. It's evident that people worshiped him because he had them doing things that were so out of the spectrum of Christianity that only a cult leader or master mind manipulator could get away with such outlandish things as Davis got away with. Davis encouraged people to abandon their spouses and get remarried into adulterous relationships contrary to the Book that we all claimed we were willing to live or die by. Davis encouraged us to ignore the poor people of this world contrary to the teachings and examples of Jesus in favor of winning those with the ability to make them rich. We ignored the fact that Davis and Kekel were steadily accumulating wealth while people were being used up and kicked to the curb. We ignored our obligation to love each other as Christ loved the church as we sat back and watched Davis and his trained assassins destroy the people that we were all charged to love.
This is nothing but idolatry. These hypocrites demanded our worship and if we were not loyal to them, they didn't want us around. People in the ntcc might as well collect all of the Gold Pinky rings and Rolex watches that they bought for board members and melt them down and fashion them into the image of a calf and fall down and worship that image, because that is exactly what they are doing. Kekel and Olson don't want you to serve God, they want you to follow their rules and pay your tithes to them. I'm so glad that God is not like them. All God wants from you is that you love him with all your heart and love your neighbor and your brothers and sisters. If you practice this simple form of Christianity all the other stuff that people fret over will fall into place.
Don and Ange said: "I might have misunderstood your point earlier but I'm definitely with you on this."
Yeah, I could have been more clear. In the same way that it's hard tell if medication worked or it was placebo it's very possible in many cases of healing it's the expectation of the healed rather than the prayers of the "Man of God" that was the cause.
Especially when the said (alleged) Man of God is a liar, swindler and covetous, shameless self promoter.
If God is using any of the preachers in NTCC for miracles I'd only think it possible if they were pretty new and hadn't been mentally and spiritually branded by the Borg yet.
That's my opinion
Oh I forgot to mention it also clouds things when there is pressure on the healed to proclaim healing. It would be intimidating and difficult to look at the man of God in the face and say, I felt nothing, I'm still broken! You know they would say its your fault, you're not right with God. So how often is there a little show made for the sake of the healer because it's expected and encouraged.
Didn't I read on here somewhere that Julie was encouraged and pressured to claim healing?
Disgusting. Charlatans.
We watched a movie the other day called Woodlawn. I would recommend this movie above all other Christian movies that I have seen. It's based on a true story about a Spiritual awakening that took place in Birmingham Alabama which was considered to be the most racially charged city in America back in the 60's and early 70's. This movie was about revival and racial reconciliation. Beyond that, I don't want to be a spoiler and ruin it for anyone that might want to watch it. I can say that this movie was more about the kind of love that Jesus taught than it was about anything that you would learn in an ntcc church. Love that spread from one person to another. It was contagious and wasn't about "my way or the highway". It wasn't about condemning people for their individuality nor was their anyone calling out sins by name.
Brother D. quoted:
" The fear of man brings a snare."
DNA said:
That is so true and we spent a great deal of time living in fear. People in the ntcc were controlled by fear and condemnation. Many people in the ntcc were motivated much more by their fear of hell than they were by the love of God. We walked on eggshells. We were afraid to be ourselves and live our lives. Everything was predicated upon trying to obtain the approval of a man and our lives became a routine that consisted of trying to do things in a way that would be respected and noticed by the ntcc overlords. They looked for young gullible minds that were eager to learn about God, but in the process of learning Christianity we were introduced to the snare of fearfulness. How many people's lives were governed by the expectations of Davis and his chosen henchmen? How many people allowed fear to interfere with their desire to help others or to show human decency to people who were looking for it?
StillSmallVoice said:
"Didn't I read on here somewhere that Julie was encouraged and pressured to claim healing?
Disgusting. Charlatans."
Julie said in an earlier blog post:
"I was supposedly healed of cerebral palsy when I was young partly and then when I was a teen idiot Ashmore prayed for me and I was told my hand grew. I actually believed that lie for a long time. I had to hide my disability because my parents were ashamed that I had no faith as well as my sin in my heart. My disability is always been there and is worse since I didn't receive medical treatment after my father joined the borg. My mother joined first and my father came later."
Jesus said: Mathew 9:2 - "And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee."
This was found on Gandy's Facebook Wall:
Preached this morning.
What sports fans can teach Christians.
1. Sports fans are faithful
2. Sports fans are spenders
3. Sports fans are tireless
4. Sports fans are loyal
5. Sports fans are passionate
Ange broke this down very well:
NTCC Church goers should be:
1) Faithful tithe-payers
2) Who spend all their money on church offerings, expensive luxury cars, RV's, manions, and collectible 'gifts' for the 'man of Gawd', 'pastuh', or church (mandatory) 'offerings'.
3) NTCC members should also be tireless 'Soul winners', church floor and toilet-bowl scrubbers, and dry-cleaning fetching, shoe-shining doormats who should render all these services (and more) for free so the 'full-time pastuh' has more time to wreak havoc in others' lives, splitting up families, jacking up brothers and sisters from the pulpit, and even getting right in their face and belittling them and screaming at them when they have done nothing wrong because he thinks it will win him loyalty points with his idol, his 'pastuh'.
4) NTCC churchgoers must be 'loyal' to their 'pastuh', the self-proclaimed 'man of gawd' who exercises complete control over every facet of their lives including how they spend their money ("that's gawd's money!"), who they marry (you need my permission to talk to that sister), how they spend all their free time, where they go, who they talk to, what hours they work, etc., etc., etc. This control is so complete that it becomes idolatry. The member no longer obeys God, but focuses instead on man's commands, even when man's commands contradict God's Word. The churchgoer is indoctrinated to never ever question the so-called 'man of gawd'; for that would not be loyal.
5) The NTCC churchgoer must be passionate about obeying all these false doctrines of men and must paste on a smile regardless of real life and attend every service, yelling "Amen!" and "Preach it Sir!" on cue while passionately laughing at all the same old stale jokes on cue and passionately jumping up and down on cue, and ignoring those racist slurs and sexist comments from the pulpit all on cue. Sit. Heel. Beg. Pay me one tenth of your income, give me whatever I lust after, fetch me new souls I can destroy. Prove your loyal to me by breaking the law when I tell you and breaking God's commandments in order to keep mine; bow down and worship me and put your passion into it!
The Vikes never told me to be broke and miserable thus I am far more passionate about Football than I'll ever be about NTCC...
What drives me insane is the fake motivation (AMEN). By the time I left I couldn't do much of anything. I began to view myself as a fraud when really I just wanted to live my life like a normal human being. I knew something was wrong but at the time I just figured it was me.
Gandy can stick his message where the sun don't shine as I watch the NFL Draft at buffalo wild wings while wishing I was 30 years younger so I could flirt with the hot waitresses. But hey, that's just me.
Mike
Hey vic I was in that ordination service I was one of the ones that a curse was pronounced on if we ever "failed God". Yes and you are right it was quite creepy and felt like it was more about feeding his ego than anything else .
Gandys message is all about being an organization Man. He made that clear on his website so he's just doing what he knows to do. He's very good at being A butt kisser and he expects others to do the same.
Bryan, thanks for the confirmation--I wasn't there, only heard about it. Hey, aren't you actually blessed these days? Another example of the fact that RW really didn't have God's ear. He told us once that God told him that he would back him up on whatever he said. More complete balderdash from the faux apostle! Did he ever tell the truth?
I see some smart people on this board... How did we fall for this? How were we brainwashed?
Bryan David Hill said:
If you call a consistant life of praying, serving, loving and studying the Word of God as well as repenting of my sins when and if they do occur, then yes, I am blessed. My health is good at 6 ft 1 in and 230 lbs with an athletic build as well as my outlook on life which is mostly positive. I am on my 10th year of marriage to a blonde hair blue eyed attractive woman whom I am very much in love with and her with me, then yeah, I'm blessed. If having traveled all over the world and living well, eating at fine dining when I want as well as bountiful holidays with grandchildren and family constantly visiting, then yeah God has blessed me. If you call having a libray of over 1500 books written by the puritans, some rare, and another 300 books on every subject meaningful to me in my own library in my house where I study and read my bible, hold an Associates and a few classes away from a BA in Transportation and Logistics Management as well as 3 Technical Certifications, if that is being blessed, then yes sir, I am blessed. If it includes material possession such as owning your own home with a home movie theater and theater seating and surround sound Bose system (where I carefully select what I watch), 4 wheel drive truck, 2016 Genesis, 22 foot fishing pontoon (fished many of the lakes in Texas), 26 ft travel trailer (camp all the time and enjoy nature) a steady job with retirement as well as many more benefits, then yes I am blessed by the mercy and grace of God. The most important part of all this is that I have a vibrant, refreshing and meaningful walk with a Holy God that I serve thru Jesus Christ daily, so vital that if God took all of this away I hope and pray that thru his grace and mercy that I could fulfil my desire to fall on my face and as Job did, say "Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD". There have been many instances that I was in harms way and instead of God killing me like NTCC said He would, God instead protected me. Don't get me wrong I am not going to gloat, but PRAISE GOD!!!!!!! LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR!!!!!!. Sorry to burst your bubble NTCC, the only thing that has tried to kill me was your man made version of Christianity. You can keep your cookie cutter religion. Inspite of your stinking pride, God taught me while I was in your organization. And the main thing he taught me was to stay in tune with Him and not your stinking version of what it means to serve God. I forgive you though. Oh and by the way, I quit paying tithe to a man made organization in 1994. do I give? yes of course but not of "necessity". II Cor 9:7Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. Yes Vic, I am blessed beyond belief and I worked for every dime of it and did not live off God's people while manipulating them and esteeming myself some great one.
I could be homeless, friendless, short, fat, bald and disabled and still consider myself blessed to be free of NTCC.
Matter of perspective I guess.
Anonymous said: "How did we fall for this?"
Great question. I think it is a combination of things.
1. They target soldiers, young men that are lonely, away from home for the first time, come from troubled backgrounds and are used to taking orders.
They pull them in by the lure of friendship, understanding and the pastor is a father figure. The members a surrogate family.
2. They appeal to ego by making the new member believe they are part of something special and they were chosen by God to be a part of the only group that God is still using in a last great outreach (exclusivity, uniqueness i.e. "holiness").
3. They pressure through an appeal to morality. By equating serving the church and church leaders as serving God, obviously anything less than giving everything, would be considered letting God down and lazy, selfish worldly etc...
4. By using the bully pulpit, peer pressure and the fear of being called out or " punished" by God, they control behavior. If you want to get along you better go along with the program. And if you leave they tell you, God will turn away from you.
5. They neutralize healthy rational doubt by redefining any questioning as originating from the devil and sinful. This can cause extreme cognitive dissonance over time, stress and lead to personality disorders and/or mental illness . The definition of insanity is: "A state of mind that prevents normal perception, behavior, or social interaction." Sound familiar?
6. They use entanglement and shunning. They use marriage as a tool to manipulate behavior and the members knowing that to leave will result in losing their friends, family and sense of belonging it becomes very hard to leave. Shunning is a common tool used by many cults and extreme religious groups.
I understand the brainwashing but what makes a person realize they are brainwashed while others don't see it. For me it was just basely being booted out which I didn't know would turn into a blessing.
For me, what led to leaving was the realization the more I read the Bible, that what they taught and demanded wasn't in there or downright contradicted it.
Ironic, as they claim to be so "Bible based".
Bryan David Hill said:
If you call a consistant life of praying, serving, loving and studying the Word of God as well as repenting of my sins when and if they do occur, then yes, I am blessed.
DNA said:
Repenting of your sins? Don't you know that you only have to repent once and then you will never sin again? That's what Davis expected. Since he could not remember the last time he sinned, if anyone else sinned, he took it upon himself to correct them and this often involved some form of public humiliation. Kekel is no different. They would teach that a person who committed habitual sins was not a Christian and had not truly repented of their sins. Meanwhile, they themselves were habitual sinners. Their sins are more grievous because they ignore the standards that they apply to everyone else. It's in our nature to sin. While Salvation delivers us from the consequences of sin and God's spirit convicts us, the flesh always wars against the spirit. "If we say we have not sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8 Davis deceived himself and everyone who listened to him. Solomon had more wisdom than Davis or any other mortal man and he said: "For there is no man that sinneth not". 1 Kings 8:36 Christians should be more concerned about restoring those who sin than judging them. The ntcc is very judgmental of others while they fail to apply their fault finding criticism to their own lives. If you pay your tithe, your sins will be ignored, most of the time. If you generate money and numbers, your trips to the whore house will be ignored and you will receive a promotion. If you do the right thing and report the whore mongering pastor, you will be treated as a non-repentant sinner and you will be driven to murder/suicide as was the case of Moreno.
I would much rather be a sinner that repents when he sins than a hypocrite that doesn't acknowledge that he sins. While some folks that make a living pointing out the sins of others, there are people out there that are interested in restoration. I'm sure people will say that we are guilty of pointing out the sins of the ntcc leadership, and that's fair. We do so to help others realize that they don't have to live in condemnation. The ones who tore you down are often guilty of much worse offenses than you will ever commit, and not only are they guilty of sins against the brethren, they make a living off of it. They are heaping treasures to themselves in Graham while trampling over the people of God. If you are repenting of your sins, you are truly blessed because there are those who have totally hardened their hearts. They have eyes, but they can't see. They have ears, but they can't hear. They are quick to judge others while they sear their own conscience with a hot iron. They don't feel the need to repent because they consider themselves to be perfect. While we were warned that if we ever left their control that we would never be blessed, it was really the opposite of what they told us. We were seldom blessed in the ntcc. We were stressed out and financially burdened to provide luxurious living conditions for Kekel, Davis and Ashmore while we struggled to survive. Getting out from under that heavy burden is a path to real blessings.
Anonymous said...
I understand the brainwashing but what makes a person realize they are brainwashed while others don't see it. For me it was just basely being booted out which I didn't know would turn into a blessing.
DNA said:
The whole purpose of brainwashing people is to get them to believe that they are involved in the last move of God on earth so that they will place themselves under total control of the manipulators that call the shots in the ntcc or any cult. The secret is to convince people that their system of rules and strict control is coming from God and not them. A person is only of use to them as long as they buy into their cultish system. They know how to manipulate people. They use the promise of eternal life and the glory of heaven to lure people in. They use the threat of hell and the fear of everlasting torment in the flames of the lake of fire to keep people around. The purpose is to use up all of their resources and move on to their next victim. If they can string you along for a couple decades they will. If you ever wake up from this nightmare and begin to question them or draw attention to their scam, they will quickly cut you off and kick you to the curb. If you do anything to disrupt the cash flow you will become a casualty of war and that's when people realize what we all have realized. It's not true love. The blessings all hinge on your giving and your sacrifice.
The reason that others don't realize that they are brainwashed is because they refuse to believe that they are wrong. They only believe what they have been taught and they learn to accept collateral damage as they see it occur around them. When others leave, they are taught that they left because they chose to hate God. This makes them feel even more special until they are the ones thrown under the bus. Everyone has a breaking point. The objective of the cult leaders is not only to get rid of those who are no longer contributing, but to make them blame themselves forever.
Don yeah I'm sure the whole repenting of sins statement gave the NTCC readers a nice little smug feeling, cuz, you know, that is what it is all about with them. In fact, it stems from the JDS doctrine itself. That doctrine teaches that as Christ (the man) was born again in hell just as we are on earth, and given a divine nature, just as we are once we are born again- that Christ once again went from "being one with the devil" as stated in those notes to being God again. In like manner it teaches that Christians who are born of God become "little gods" and therefore have creative powers as well as divinity indwelling that keeps you from sinning. This is why RW kept saying that he cannot remember the last time he sinned. In reality, the more Christlike we become, the more aware of our sinfulness we become.
Don and Ange said: "They use the promise of eternal life and the glory of heaven to lure people in"
And they require salvation to be the NTCC brand version. Before I was invited to the Borg I had prayed for salvation sincerely and had been baptized about a year before. That didn't count. Nope. God wasn't good enough, I had to get saved again and be rebaptized. I didn't think it was necessary at the time which just shows I guess, that I wasn't a very good brain washing candidate from the very beginning.
StillSmallVoice said:
"And they require salvation to be the NTCC brand version."
DNA said:
We were always taught as soul winners and altar workers that we had to get them lost before they could be saved. I remember new people coming to church and praying with them. We would ask them where there soul would go if they were to die right now. Some would say heaven, but we would never believe them. Part of getting them lost was trying to get them to admit they were a sinner. We would say, okay, so you don't drink or smoke or curse at all, and this would cause some to crack. If we couldn't get them to admit any sins, we would attack their religion. If they said they were Christians we would ask them what denomination they were and then we would pick apart their doctrines. We badgered and pestered the new people until they either decided to pray or until they left mad. When we couldn't crack them, we would leave them with a warning that God knows their heart and no matter what they said to us, they couldn't hide their sins from God. This was wrong and I was wrong for doing this to people, but this was how we were taught to work the altars.
The ntcc falls short of Christianity by excluding people from their brand of salvation. Whatever your denomination is, it will surely send you to hell. Whatever prayers you prayed prior to visiting the pompous ntcc church, they couldn't possibly have been heard by God because any denomination outside of the ntcc was trashed from the pulpit. It's no wonder that they only keep less then one out of a hundred for more than a year or two.
God isn't good enough for them. They require the red hot NTCC brand pressed into the new members. Marked for life; even if they leave
the scar remains. They demand God to conform to the image of NTCC and operate only within their boundaries.. No wonder idolatry runs rampant in that organization. I mean at some point to remain loyal requires wilfull blindness...
I remember reading about reported controlled courtship and marriage in ntcc. To be very honest I didn't believe it when I heard it long ago, till it happened to me! My last ntcc pastor tried to hook me up with a single woman that I had NOT absolutely no desire for(even if she was the last woman on earth). He went ahead with it anyways even after I informed him twice that I did not desire this woman whatsover. What a CONTROL FREAK!!! Im glad im gone. Of course there's more story about him than that.......
I know when i left, i was shunned, ignored on Facebook, BLOCKED from facebook, and when NTCCers knew the news of my leaving it was spread like wildfire!! Honestly, I left and did not say a word to anyone, nor did I make a disturbance in the church, but left discretely and respectfully but finding out later that people shunned me like the plague. It was like that I actually did cause a church disturbance but I did not. There is your "friends" for you.
Anonymous said...
I remember reading about reported controlled courtship and marriage in ntcc.
DNA said:
Don't get me started on this topic. When I was at Colorado Springs, the Tiemans encouraged me to get hooked up with a 17 year old girl when I was 25. We didn't feel each other up like Mike Kekel bragged about feeling Tanya up when she was Jail bait and he was in his mid twenties, but the relationship was a total mismatch and it felt inappropriate. When I met Ange in the Army, we both were the exact same age and we connected and there was serious chemistry going on there. I had to tell the other girl that I was interested in someone else. I knew that the awkward relationship and the age difference was wrong. My punishment for doing the right thing was I got to practice celibacy for the rest of my time in the ntcc, As Ange and I were split apart.
The ntcc is a relationship destroying machine. They put the wrong people together because they want people to be miserable. Seriously. They don't want people enjoying their relationships too much, and for that matter, they don't even want people to enjoy their salvation either. If you are at odds with your spouse it creates leverage. Leverage? Yep, Leverage. When you are fighting the devil and fighting with your spouse, you are prime candidates for marriage counseling. When you pour out your heart to your pastor expecting help, you don't expect anything you say to be used against you, but guess what? Davis, actually said, in so many words, not to tell him anything, because he wasn't keeping any secrets. Nothing was sacred to him. He would hold things against people and gossip about them from the pulpit to the entire congregation. Don't think all of these other abusive jerks aren't going to do the same thing. The ntcc is a big Merry-go-Round. One person jumps off and another person jumps on. Marriage vows mean nothing in the ntcc. How many ntcc'rs have been married multiple times in the ntcc? Wake up!!!!! It's all about money and if you are being encouraged to leave your spouse, it's usually because your spouse wants to leave the ntcc and they are afraid that you and your tithe might go with them. They will encourage you to abandon your spouse in a New York minute and hook you up with someone else that isn't right for you. The bible has a word for this. What's that word? It's called Adultery. Read your bibles folks. Don't get mad at us, we didn't write the bible, we are just sharing it with you. Mat 10:11-12 "And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery." How simple is that? You claim to be a bible believing church but you ntcc'rs don't believe this scripture at all. HELLO!!!!!
I know we have blogged quite a bit about adultery. We are definitely not trying to condemn people who have been divorced. In many ways we blame the ntcc for the divorce rate within the borg much more than we blame the individuals that are pushed into divorce. People in the ntcc actually are forced to make decisions and they think that those decisions are coming from God. When someone you hold in high esteem to be the mouthpiece of God tells you that your spouse is going to cause you to lose out with God, it's horrifying to say the least. You are being forced to choose between your spouse and God, by someone who is in it for the money.
We blog about it because the ntcc claims to be the last bastion of hope for mankind and the only church that believes the bible in it's entirety and the only ones that have the wisdom and understanding to rightly divide the word of truth on planet earth. They blast every other denomination while splitting hairs with them on things that are not even essential to eternal life. They cause their own congregants to question the faith of anyone who is not a part of their cult, but when it all comes down to it, they violate much more of God's word than many other mainstream religions do. They ignore the poor contrary to God's word. They preach tithe or hell contrary to God's word. They manipulate relationships and forbid some to marry, while encouraging others to divorce contrary to the word of God. We hope people will wake up and realize what the ntcc is all about. We hope people will see the lack of transparency and the flagrant abuse of power which is on display in the ntcc. Often times ntcc'rs and X-ers alike are more interested in finding fault with every jot and title that we write than looking at this cult for what it actually is. The ntcc is not a bible believing church. They clearly use the bible to get what they want and they are masterful at twisting scriptures and preaching hell fire and damnation to the masses for the purpose of lining the pockets of it's leadership with your money. This should be a wake up call to those who have been along for the ride. At some point you have to take the steering wheel and choose the direction that you think God wants you to go, instead of allowing them to direct you into error.
People in the ntcc don't think for themselves; In fact they don't think much at all. They give more than 10% of their income without any biblical commandment to do so. They don't care where the money gets spent and they don't care that there is no transparency. They never grow up and think for themselves. They never question anything even if there is no biblical foundation for their beliefs and actions. I get it, we were all there and we all struggled with this, but we didn't have the internet and thousands of testimonies to shed light on the corruption that exists in the ntcc. Back in the day the double standards were hid behind a shroud of secrecy in Graham. Now the double standards are blatantly and brazenly being displayed for all to see. People are disregarding the teachings of Davis like they never existed, but many of us altered our lives to live by Davis doctrine. The hypocrites are eating their way through the foundation of God's work like millions of termites, and while it still might look like God's church from the outside, the structure is being destroyed from the inside and it is beyond repair.
When the soul winners took their time and spent their gas bringing you to church you weren't kidnapped.
No one dragged you to the altar other than Holy Ghost conviction.
No one held a gun to your head to make you pay tithe.
The doors were never locked preventing you from leaving.
No one forced you to say "I do" to anyone.
What you call the rules of men the Bible calls sanctification. You can't tell me a woman with a pure and Christ-like heart will dress like a prostitute...so the way a person dresses does reflect the heart, yes?
If the members hold the leaders in too much reverence whose fault is that?
If over zealous members take suggestions as "rules" and "laws" whose fault is that?
Maybe some people just can't handle being held accountable
You know your concept here is not cutting. One, yes I got saved in NTCC and is was genuine. Two, yes no one forced me or put a gun to my head to come to church. But NO told me, put a gun to my head or twisted my arm to happen to find out that my pastor did abuse his athority and covered it up. Man I wish my eyes and ears could have tape recordings in them because I can prove his wrong doings. So how bout you really think,of what you say
Crowd psychology, fear-mongering, and guilt-tripping dragged more people to NTCC altars than "Holy Ghost conviction." And no one has to hold a gun to anyone's head when the thoughts inside have been molded toward believing that failure to comply will result in eternal agony in flames of fire, which also obviated the necessity for locks on the doors. And just how does a prostitute dress, Mr. holier-than-thou? If the leaders exalt themselves to the heavens and represent themselves as modern day apostles and prophets, it's certainly their fault if the people under their influence who haven't yet realized that they're congenital BS artists believe them. We were there; the rules and laws we received were never represented as mere "suggestions."
If you want to talk about accountability, focus your attention on the borg "leadership," which is subject to none whatsoever. Sounds like you might be one of them.
Quote "yes I got saved in NTCC and is was genuine."
There you have it. Sounds like you should be thankful for the work put in to bring you to God.
Just because one pastor was maybe questionable doesn't mean they all are besides he probably just hurt your feelings because you were sinning and he called you out.
Its not abuse calling it like it is now isit?
Anonymous said...
When the soul winners took their time and spent their gas bringing you to church you weren't kidnapped.
No one dragged you to the altar other than Holy Ghost conviction.
DNA said:
The same can be said about the followers of David Koresh and Jim Jones. People are not drug kicking and screaming into cults. The money grubbing preachers invite them out and love bomb them to death so they can get their tithe. It's pretty shameful when you look at it. You are right, nobody dragged me to the altar. We were told we had a choice, the ntcc way or the highway. I took my time and spent my gas bringing people to cult meetings but that doesn't make it right.
This anonymous poster is proving our point with his/her ignorant comments. First of all I would say that there is a 99% chance that this anonymous person is too scared to say his/her name. Why is that? They are supposedly saved and living for God. What do they have to hide? Why would they be afraid to mention who they are and what they really stand for? The answer is simple. They are in a cult and they are not supposed to be commenting on this blog. They serve a master that forbids them to think for themselves and they are ashamed to let anyone know that they are contributing such gutless and mindless answers. We've said it before and we'll say it again. The indefensible positions of the ntcc can not be defended. The only thing anonymous can do is talk down to us and insult us. They can't defend tithe because the mandate to pay tithe does not exist in the New Testament. I will prove it Anonymous, because you can not and will not find one New Testament Scripture that commands Jews and especially Gentiles to pay tithe. You won't find one scripture because it doesn't exist just as the Old Testament law of bringing tithe to the temple no longer exists. The Levitical priesthood no longer exists. This is proof that you are brain washed and further proof is that you will not come back with an answer because there is no answer. The only thing, I repeat. the ONLY thing you can possibly do is insult and talk down to us as if you are some super spiritual prophet of doom.
Quote "And just how does a prostitute dress, Mr. holier-than-thou?"
You know it when you see it right? To dress in a way the excites lust. Tight clothes lots of skin and make up. High heels. It's everywhere these days and on TV.
If I'm holier than thou you said it not me. Christians are holier than sinners right? So obviously people can be holier than other people and should be.
You also know preachers DO make mistakes? They are capable of compromise. They are NOT immuned to corruption. And they are held to a higher account. I personally witnessed abuse of authority, favoritism(and it DOES happen), and cover ups. And I'm not saying this cuz someone told me or saw it on the internet. But literally witnessed my last pastor's abuse. And yes my last pastor did try to force me in a relationship I did not want to be a part of. So quit saying " no came and dragged you to church or forced you to say I do." What a real poor example you put up.
Anonymous said:
"No one held a gun to your head to make you pay tithe.
The doors were never locked preventing you from leaving.
No one forced you to say "I do" to anyone."
DNA said:
This is good stuff. You can't make this up. Anonymous reasons that because nobody put a gun to our head to make us pay tithe, that it was okay. Share some scripture with us please spiritual one. Let us know if it's God's rule or man's rule for us to pay tithe in the New Testament. If you are going to keep that part of the Old Testament law you might as well keep the blood sacrifices. What you are doing when you twist scriptures requiring Christians to pay tithe, is you are making Christs blood and sacrifice of none effect. Read you bible. If you are justified by the law you are fallen from Grace and you are a debtor to keep the whole law. Read your bible, anonymous and then come back with scriptures, because you are making the ntcc look really bad. That is precisely why they don't want you on here and why they don't come on here. Please bring some substance to this conversation.
Finally someone with the courage to speak up for the Borg!
"When the soul winners took their time and spent their gas bringing you to church you weren't kidnapped."
Maybe but the soul winners sure didn't like to take no for an answer and there must be some kind of anti stalking laws against their relentless pursuit of future tithe payers.
And the soul winners might as well have been kidnapped with the amount of time they were required to forsake family and build the hungry Borg. Only to have most of the people they brought run off and/or embarrassed. Hear that? That's the sound of money being burned up and disappearing in a soul winner's gas tank..
"No one dragged you to the altar other than Holy Ghost conviction."
Easy for you to say. When soul winners report what their contacts are doing and members report on each other it's pretty easy to preach hellfire, claim it's God that told the preacher secrets and push people to a public show based on guilt and fear. Fear of hell is a strong motivator. So is bullying and embarrassing people.
"No one held a gun to your head to make you pay tithe."
True, but envelopes were required with your name on them. Woe unto the member that didn't pay after "getting in". Making minimum wage and feeding your kids ramen? Better pay your tithe! The leaders need a new Cadillac! And another mansion (even though the preachers are poor and they've been tithing how long?).
Oh and it's not in the New Testament other than that if a person keeps any part of the Law they are obligated to keep the whole Law and are no longer under Grace. No thank you! 2 Corinthians 9:7, Galatians 3:10
"The doors were never locked preventing you from leaving."
Not physically, but psychologically they can become locked and barred by fear. Who wants to walk away from heaven and feel guilt and rejection in doing so? Because to leave the NTCC is to leave God, right? C'mon you know that's taught and preached there.
"No one forced you to say "I do" to anyone."
Ah the memories... My pastor said brother I'll pray about whether God blesses this marriage. Later: "Yes ill perform the marriage, but not in church she's been divorced", Fast forward to when problems spring up..."brother , I told you she was trouble and not to marry her!" What? No, you did not sir! (Pretty sure he had just wanted the increased tithe from housing allowance and separate rations.)
"What you call the rules of men the Bible calls sanctification. You can't tell me a woman with a pure and Christ-like heart will dress like a prostitute...so the way a person dresses does reflect the heart, yes?"
And Christians from denominations across this planet don't dress like prostitutes. Don't need NTCC for that. And where the Bible speaks of modesty? Many times that's referring to flaunting wealth. Which would mean driving 250k cars and Iiving in mansions is not God blessing you. Hey, where's the Holy Ghost conviction there? How many mansions did Paul own. Or Jesus?
"If the members hold the leaders in too much reverence whose fault is that?"
The leaders for demanding, expecting and promoting it.
"If over zealous members take suggestions as "rules" and "laws" whose fault is that?"
See the above answer.
"Maybe some people just can't handle being held accountable."
Like you? Like the leaders of NTCC? Nice attempt at shifting blame but look in the mirror. That's leadership.
Quote: "We were there; the rules and laws we received were never represented as mere "suggestions."
Well when there's different choices to be made and paths the world chooses one way and Christians choose the way the Holy Ghost leads. It may seem like rules but it's just God showing us the way He chose for us. And if this is so difficult are you even saved?
StillSmallVoice summed it all up in a nice easy to understand way, without mincing words. Every single lame point that was brought up by anonymous was skilfully answered by SSV and has it's foundation in biblical principles. Anonymous, however, really is struggling to make a case for the ntcc. How embarrassing.
All your crying and complaining about tithe. Is money your God? All you Xmen Bible "experts" have to admit many many Christian churches teach tithing. If there's nothing to it why do so many do it? Answer me that.
Anonymous said:
"What you call the rules of men the Bible calls sanctification. You can't tell me a woman with a pure and Christ-like heart will dress like a prostitute...so the way a person dresses does reflect the heart, yes?"
DNA said:
Have you seen some of the outfits Tanya wears? You want to talk about clothing that is so tight it makes the brothers lust. When you point your finger at others you have four pointing back at you, actually three and a thumb. The holiness rules that you claim are from God, are not followed by Tanya. How many times did Jesus rebuke people for dressing like a prostitute? How many times did Jesus mention anything about how people dressed? He talked about the Pharisees who loved to walk around in long robes and acting super spiritual just like the ntcc pastors who wear suits and ties, but inwardly they are like ravening wolves. They condemn others for outward appearance while they greedily run after gain. They preach condemnation to those who don't pay tithe while they lay around the house all day acting like they are so holy that everyone in their congregation owes them a free ride. They think they are much better than Paul who had a job. The ntcc leadership uses their pulpits to deceive and lie to people about tithe, while their congregants feel hell bound if they don't deprive their families of the basic necessities of life so that smug hypocrites like Kekel can spend thousands of dollars on draperies and tapestries for their mansion. Wake up!!!! Snap out of it anonymous. You are losing this argument miserably. The people you are defending have corrupted themselves and the people around them with prosperity doctrine, but people like you are too blinded to realize that the only ones prospering are a few select people like the Kekels, the Olsons, the Johnsons and the Joneses. Maybe the Gesangs, Kinsons and a few others, but the rest will never achieve that false hope of prosperity on this earth because in the ntcc, it's all about money and numbers.
Anonymous said...
All your crying and complaining about tithe. Is money your God? All you Xmen Bible "experts" have to admit many many Christian churches teach tithing. If there's nothing to it why do so many do it? Answer me that.
DNA said:
Okay, I will answer you even though your comment is so lame it defers to what other churches do to justify your own churches false doctrines. Many, many Christian churches don't teach the man made holiness rules that you teach, but you don't apply the same rule to them. Your logic is that you are the only ones that are right on that topic but you have to twist the scriptures to support that doctrine also. That is why we call you double standard hypocrites. The only defense that you have for preaching tithe is that other churches preach it, but as we predicted, you can not, and will not find one scripture to support tithe because it is a false doctrine and you know it. Keep talking anonymous, you are doing more to make our point than we could ever do....
Is money our God? No, money is your God and you just proved it. You have no biblical evidence that tithe is required for New Testament Christians and yet you defend it vehemently.
Y'all crack me up. You wallow around together in the same sty sharing the stink and gossping without any proof about brothers and sisters you used to claim to care about. Youve been feeding each other garbage so long you think lies are truth. Why don't you let people be and be a man about quitting. Or is it more fun to be obsessed about something your not even a part of anymore. Seems like bitterness to me.
Do you even go to church anymore? Quitters love to say oh NTCC isn't the only church that's right. Then they leave and never go to any church at all. What, did you find out they teach tithe too?
You're right sunshine! Not evertone is like that. But he was not the only one.....for your information. And it was not a question, it's a fact. So calm yourself
You crack me up, sunshine. Because I'm not the rest of the others. And the fact you got pastors who act like they can NEVER make a mistake or be wrong. People like you. So keep your chin up and continue being confident in your-holy-than thou self.
Wow, that's mature. Go to an ntcc church near you and you can hear the same mindless dribble every Sunday morning. This is why your church/cult can't keep people. This is precisely how you drive them away every week in large numbers. The ntcc has been around for the better part of 5 decades and most of the churches have 10 to 15 people sitting in the pews shouting Amen! Preach it Sir! What a great church. Where can we sign up? Why don't you use the "All the other churches do it" rule to explain why your numbers are so low. Other churches accept tithe and teach it but they don't condemn people to hell for not paying it like the ntcc does. Why are their numbers better than yours? Why are their churches bigger than yours? Could it be that you are all so arrogant to think that you are the only ones on planet earth to have it right? There is this thing called love that is lacking in the ntcc because they preach the same thing that this anonymous commentor is preaching and very few in their right mind want to hear it. It's not because it's convicting them, but rather it shows a great display of ignorance to the masses. Keep bringing it anonymous, maybe some more of your followers will see how lame your points are and leave the ntcc to attend one of the other churches that focus more on Christ than on your non-biblical rules.
By the way. If I was sinning then I'm human, and I'll get on my knees and ask for forgiveness. I'll be the one to say that I did wrong, I'll be the one that omit that I've come short before God.....and yes I've messed up.....and so have you, Mr. Im-holy-than-thou. For your info, he was sinning and he was wrong. But he's not man enough to ommit that he was wrong.
Anonymous said:
"Why don't you let people be and be a man about quitting."
DNA said:
A little sensitive there aren't you? Why don't you let people be? Why didn't Davis ever let people be? Why doesn't Kekel ever let people be? If you live by the sword you will also die by the sword. If you tell people not to commit adultery and you commit adultery yourself, what does that make you? If you encourage people to marry after they have been divorced in the ntcc, what does that make you? Say it all together class: A HYPOCRITE! You talk about people wallowing in the same sty, what about all of you ntcc hypocrites? What about Philandering Phil Kinson? What about your Flounder, I mean Founder R-dub Davis? Let's apply your "everybody else says it so it must be true rule" to Davis. You know how many X-ntcc ministers, bible school students, church members and former acquaintances of Davis have testified that Davis molested them, committed adultery or made sexual advances towards them? Come on Anonymous, continue to accuse others when your own tongue is filled with poison. Who are you? Why are you so afraid to say who you are? You have brought nothing credible to this discussion and there is no credibility because you are too scared and too much of a whimp to even admit who you are.
Anonymous apologist said: "If there's nothing to it why do so many do it?"
Not that it matters to you, because you don't care about logic but that's an argumentum ad populum fallacy. Otherwise known as the appeal to the majority fallacy. Most commonly first encountered when our parents go "well if all your friends were jumping off a bridge would you do it too?" Just because many, or most people believe in or are doing something doesn't make it true or right. Think: for centuries the Catholic Church was the only show in town and even you, I'm sure would not claim they were right. Ironically the Catholics don't teach a 10 percent tithe. Which is interesting considering how far back they go in history.
Also many churches teach tithe as an ideal amount but not a requirement for salvation. I'm pretty sure the "if you don't pay tithe you're splitting hell wide open!" is unique to extreme groups like the Borg.
You would think that if tithe was soooo important for salvation Jesus would have taught on the subject once or twice.
The silence in the New Testament on tithing speaks for itself.
NTCC is guilty of double sin. Demanding compulsory giving in violation of Galatians and secondly using the tithe to enrich a select few, very few I might add, leaders.
The audacity of living in a mansion and driving 250k cars and RVs etc...while tithing members live in poverty boggles my mind and speaks to me of a seared conscious.
And the Catholics, et al, sir put your org to shame when it comes to charity and expressing love for the poor and needy.
Proverbs 28:27
"He who gives to the poor shall not want, but he who hides his eyes will get many a curse".
"Seems like bitterness to me."...
LOL, I'll admit right now I'm bitter you sad sack! You say be a man yet you post as anonymous.
I could have invested 10's of thousands but I gave it to hucksters. Yeah that ticks me off.
Then after asking D/A to see what you people would like to share (hoping that you can debate above a 5th grade level) you come at us with the exact argument we complain CULTS use. Thanks for proving us right about that.
If you do have anything to add beyond the "Be a man, quit like a man", Xmen this and traitors that... blah blah blah please feel free to share. Please oh please don't be too predictable.
Oh and if you want to know why so many preach tithe it might have something to do with the homes that are plastered on this web page and this particular blog.
Mike
Anonymous said: "Quitters like to say oh NTCC isn't the only church that's right."
Not me. Not only is NTCC NOT the only church that's right, it's not even A church that's right.
I'd get more from sitting in a synagogue listening to a torah reading.
And I'm not Jewish.
Prov. 22:16 "He that oppresseth the poor to increase his riches, and he that giveth to the rich, shall surely come to want."
This is precisely why so many ntcc'rs are poor. It's plain and simple. Black and white. If you believe the bible like you say you do than you ntcc'rs need to repent. Last I heard Kekel is worth millions and you are giving your money to him. Is it any surprise that you are struggling to live from paycheck to paycheck? The bible that you claim to believe says that if you give your money to rich people like Kekel, you shall surely come to want. Perhaps that is why there are so many people living below the poverty line. Prosperity preaching and the whole JDS movement has it's roots in making a very select few rich. This is false doctrine. Don't tell us you believe the bible while you continue to send your tithe to Graham. Are you blind fools? Are you completely stupid? Where do you think your money really goes? Go up to the compound in Graham and look at the houses. You are giving your money to the rich. Two scriptures that are totally ignored in the ntcc:
Prov. 28:27 "He that giveth unto the poor shall not lack"
Prov. 22:16 "He that giveth to the rich, shall surely come to want.
How much clearer can this be? The reason it's not clear to anonymous is because he does not believe the bible. The ntcc acts like they have a monopoly on believing the bible but they are not even grounded in the basics. They can't even practice the two great commandments that Jesus spoke of in the New Testament. Love the Lord with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. It's hard to love anyone when you are fleecing them for every spare dime they earn. You don't love your brother who you have seen, how do you expect people to believe that you love God who you have not seen? You are too busy condemning people and sending them to hell for stupid stuff that isn't even biblical. You encompass heaven and earth to make one proselyte and when you find that one person who buys into your false doctrine you make him two fold more the child of hell than you are. When are you going to quit playing church and get saved? You just need a good dose of salvation. There you go. How do you like that? That's what you say every week from your pulpit. Why don't you man up and apply it to yourself?
I believe I failed to put my name to the last comment.
Julie
All this anonymous person wants to do is preach at us. He said it doesn't matter who he is, so his comments are no longer welcome here. He's too brainwashed and scared of his borg superiors to say who he is and refuses to contribute anything but insults and lies, so unless he can state his case without preaching at us, his comments will not be published. We have been freed from the bondage of the ntcc and I can't see any benefit in letting this deceived double standard hypocrite tell us that we are sinners while justifying himself and his cult. Come back anonymous if you can support your doctrine with actual scriptures or after you grow a spine and are not too scared to identify yourself. Remember, you are the one that can not support your doctrine with scripture. Continue to pay your tithe and get Kekel rich while he plays you for a fool. Perhaps one day when you get kicked to the curb, you will come to your senses like thousands of others have. Hope you find peace in God before you die, because you've got some serious issues.
He's probably getting yelled at already for making the Borg look bad in public.
I would like to challenge any NTCC member/leader to an open debate on any one of the following subjects: (1) Meaning of holiness (2) The JDS heresy (3) Tithe (4) Spiritual abuse (5) Whether or not the NTCC is a man made organization.
Hello! Any takers? I will even fly to Washington. This must be in the month of October or November. Open debate means we have a moderator and it is public. And I am serious.
My name is Bryan David Hill. Just a nobody, so hey lets get to the bottom of it. No "anonymous" to hide behind now. Let's find out who has the balance of scripture and the blessing of consistency in accurately applying it.
im sure this can even be done over the Internet and recorded for later uploading. how bout it ntccers?
if you're scared say you're scared.
last time i ran into a ntccer i was friendly and made small talk while he insisted on asking questions which i didn't want to answer.
he kept pressing so i answered and he blew up and raised his voice etc...
now when i see him he tries to psychologically insult me.
lol.... bring it on!
pimps in the pulpit = ntcc.
look it up anonymous on YouTube
I just want to know what they think of their organization as it pertains to Christianity as a whole. Are they still the only ones? Are they still the last movement on earth? Are they still worshipping the higher ups and groveling at their feet? Is anyone accountable for all the money that comes in? Is there anyone accountable for all the poverty on one side and the luxury on the other?
Answer the questions with something other than "You're of the devil", "you're an xer", you're bitter... Whatever... Use your brain and think of something original.
Mike
Preachers don't debate they preach the gospel. The doctrinal statement is available on the NTCC website. It's not hidden and has the supporting scriptures listed.
i need true stories of how paying tithe brought you financial hardship... email them to danonpriget@gmail.com. thanks... or just post them here... im not in ntcc anymore if u were wondering
Setting aside the fact that Christians aren't under the Law in the New Testament, let's talk tithe.
Okay well I found this on the NTCC site:
"We recognize the scriptural duty of all people as well as ministers, to pay tithes unto the Lord. (Heb. 7:8) Tithes should be used for the support of the active ministry and for the propagation of the Gospel and the work of the Lord. It is not to be given to charity or used for other purposes. (Mal. 3:7-11; Heb. 7:2; I Cor. 9:7-11; 16:2)"
It is not to be given to charity or used for other purposes?
Are mansions "other purposes"? Luxury cars? Vacations?
When was the last time it was used to "support the ministry"?
Or are we to believe no tithe was used to purchase any part of those things? Get out of here. How naive are some people?
I wonder if that "not to be used for other purposes" has tax ramifications if it was.
Like when I lived in the servicemen's home there was the "home offering". Only we put it in an envelope with our name and the required amount. Strange kind of offering. Sounds a lot like rent.
But I'm sure that money only went to further the gospel, right?
so the gospel is videogames, sports, higher education is sinful and/or not furthering Gods kingdom and a Christian shouldn't do these things unless you're grant kekel?
Oh, you want to talk about your doctrinal statement? Why has the church changed since Mike took over? Why has holiness gone out the window? It was preached we were all going to hell if we watched TV or went to the movies or spent time on the net... Now you're all doing that crap.
Preach to me about NTCC BD and AD (Before Davis/After Davis). I thought God didn't change.
Please explain the exodus of Ashmore and his minions...
Preach to me.
Anon says preachers don't debate, they preach and NTCC doctrinal statement is in their homepage. Understood, but how about a two way conversation? We have grown past the domineering attitude NTCC likes to use to exploit itself on its members. We now know how to hold our ground. The Bereans were more noble because they studied the scriptures to see if what they were being told was true, Paul did preach and debate at times. Come out from the shadows and face those you have lied to.
Paul did debate at times, but with those that had never heard the gospel. There are no examples of him communicating with those who had left any of the churches and were publishing negative reports about their experience. However I'm willing to address a couple of the hot button issues that keep cropping up.
Sanctification is a very misunderstood process, especially by those who have never experienced it. This is one reason Christians appear and in fact are separated from the world in dress and behavior.
Think of it like salvation is arriving at basic training and you know nothing about the military or how to be a good soldier. Drill sergeants don't deal with a first week recruit the same as a soldier just about to graduate. One can do ten push-ups and the other sixty.
In this example the drill sergeant represents the Holy Ghost.
Now imagine the new recruit hears the drill sergeant "encouraging" the other to do more than sixty push ups....he gets discouraged and down in the dumps and loses his motivation "man they have a rule of more than sixty push ups I'll never make it!" and ends up quitting. Well, he wasn't run off and it wasn't even him being talked to. Nor was it a rule, just being pushed to be your best.
In this way many times the Holy Ghost is dealing with one individual in a service to take the next step and another member or many of them take it to heart as "a rule" but it wasn't even meant for them. The Holy Ghost deals with individuals in an ongoing process individually. Through conviction.
The Holy Ghost baptism does cause change.
Like with TVs. For someone new having a TV is pretty common. And then at some point this becomes similar to the eating of meat offered to idols that Paul dealt with. Is television unequivocally a sin for all Christians? No. But it can be very easily for individuals. So would God make a rule "no televisions for everyone!" Of course not. There's nothing wrong with watching certain things. But you must see it is a source of temptation and can cause weak Christians and new Christians to stumble. Therefore it is preached against to certain people in services and like with Paul and meat offered to idols it is discouraged in general but not outright "disallowed" for members and never has been. If certain preachers in their enthusiasm and inexperience preached overly energetically against it, God will deal with them. They're not actually controlled like robots and do have some liberty.
As far as all the concern and uproar about houses and cars and all this I don't know how some men have invested their money and they have a right to privacy. 1 Corinthians 9:14 it is the right of a preacher to live off the gospel though Paul waved that right. When you mix personal income in with rightful gospel preaching increase and the right to privacy people will say all kinds of things. But God blesses whom he chooses to bless. Sometimes we must trust others.
Hope this has helped.
What's really funny is this Preacher/Student/whomever is actually someone who doesn't even want to be doing what he's doing. That's why they've embraced TV and all the other stuff they'd go to hell for 5 years ago.
Nobody wants to Soul Win per NTCC guidelines. Going on military installations and running into people you know begging them to come to church was horrible.
Going door to door in the civilian churches was a waste of time.
I hated every minute of it while claiming to love it. Just like the every other NTCCer.
I hated 5 church services and singing the same stupid songs. The worst was Friday Q/A that lasted till midnight. Just a guy rambling on and on listening to himself talk.
Sundays were never a day of rest, just constant busy work that affected nothing.
I hate the fact I've wasted some of the best years of my life shouting AMEN when some guy with a napoleon complex told me to.
NTCC, you can go burn for all I care!
Ashmore leaving is a wake up call that no matter how long you've walked with God you can still be led astray by temptation if you become complacent.
Anonymous said: "Please explain the exodus of Ashmore and his minions..."
I know right? Denis left with his followers. Ashmore left with his followers. Davis died and his followers are changing all the rules. Someone else no doubt will leave and take even more with them.
1 Corinthians 3:4-6 (KJV)
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So what do you get when the carnal I am of so and so floushies and is promoted and encouraged?
NTCC, HOP, Ashmores group whatever it's called and on and on. Hey people it's about God. And He doesn't resoect the walls of your man made organization, Hr didn't name it and He'll definitely let it fail.
It's of men.
Anonymous said: "The worst was Friday Q/A that lasted till midnight. Just a guy rambling on and on listening to himself talk."
We must have gone to the same church. Sounds soooo familiar. Not many questions but lots and lots of lengthy answers.
Our pastor used a question box and would just ignore the questions he didn't want to deal with.
Hold your horses there cowboy now let's talk about this minute. Sanctification - you didn't quite go deep enough if you are going to define sanctification, why just limit it to what you wear or your pet subjects? How about the use of pagan holidays or the calendar, birthdays the wearing of a wedding ring, ties, women wearing high heels so their butt sticks up in the air or panty hose that is in the color of "nude" to make the skin look better then it really is, you know, like make up. These things have their roots in pagan religion as well. Sanctification can be of such a work that it actually abhors man made rules that are substituted for the actual work of the Spirit. NTCC has hijacked the subject of sanctification and uses it to define whether or not you are "IN" or not in order to excersise control over its property/subjects.
You see, your problem is you've been indoctrinated by the beliefs of an organization that pick and choose what to believe without being consistent. The NTCC is quick to condemn people to hell for not following the rules but what about all the stuff they left out? why is it just the rules they picked? Who are they to define God or the work of sanctification for anyone else. The Bible says Christ is our sanctification well before the institution of the NTCC. For the NTCC to even hint that it has a monopoly on God or Gods people I believe makes God sick. Keep your little 3 point sermonettes for those who don't know how to pray and get the mind of God or read the Bible for themselves. I will address your other straw men at my own convenience.
Passive aggressive anonymous wants us to think he has "helped us" by simply trusting that all those big houses and investments are nobody's business when in reality you should be responsible for financial disclosure concerning God's money.
I do understand your point about Paul not debating for the most part, that sure does work out to your favor sense NTCC thrives on one-way conversations.
Where was our right to privacy when all of our business was always constantly scrutinized and judged.
Anonymous propagandist is in a difficult position. If he defends the former holiness standards passionately and with scripture I will ask, why then has it changed? Was Denis right? Did God change?
If he defends the new kinder gentler NTCC and dismisses the former practices I will ask: so was God in error before, why was there a change? Was it not what made NTCC special in the first place?
So we'll get generalities and political speak and damage control but nothing of substance. I mean anyone whose been to conference over the years knows what was put out there. What would have happened had your wife told pastor you bought a TV?
Not, oh that's not a sin...
You can't change history no matter how much you'd like to.
Regarding the obfuscation attempt concerning wealthy leaders, I mean c"mon. You've got missionaries and pastors and preachers barely eating, driving rust bucket smoke spewing disasters, clothing their wives and children out of thrift stores...hoarding coupons like they're gold...while the the select few live in ease and luxury. Hey it's nothing new. Wealthy church leaders scamming their naive members for gain has been going on for centuries.
Your leaders are just particularly audacious and arrogant about it.
How can they claim to love God and live in ease and watch their brothers and sisters, no their flock, struggle and suffer.
Where is God in your heart? When is sanctification gonna get rid of that greed and covetousness?
It doesn't surpise me. It shouldn't surprise any of us. Haven't they always said church is a business? (A total misinterpretation and twisting of Luke 2:49 by the way)
What do we see in the world of business? CEOs paying themselves millions upon millions plus bonuses while firing people and cutting wages.
I'm not surprised.
And if any tithe was used to prosper the leaders' lifestyle they violated their own doctrinal statement. But we'll never know as their accounting is in the shadows
Luke 8:17
For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.
I have a feeling they'll be even more exposed in time as more long time members leave.
Sorry one more comment, regarding sanctification.
The process of sanctification is supposed to make a believer more Christ-like as they grow in grace and the knowledge of God.
Jesus said we are to love our neighbor as ourselves. Not brother or sister. Neighbor. All people.
Do the leaders and preachers of NTCC reveal a heart of love for their neighbor? Simple question.
I never saw it.
By their fruits they shall be known.
What's that verse about being clean on the outside but on the inside full of dead men's bones?
Sorry wait. Are they still doing that clean on the outside thing? I'm so confused!
So Ashmore was complacent? Is that the company line? Man, the warning signs of BS are all around you and yet you remain steadfast?
Anonymous said...
Paul did debate at times, but with those that had never heard the gospel. There are no examples of him communicating with those who had left any of the churches and were publishing negative reports about their experience. However I'm willing to address a couple of the hot button issues that keep cropping up.
DNA said:
If you are going to address hot button issues and compare the ntcc leadership with Paul, then how about identifying yourself? There is really no credibility if you are afraid to say who you are. And let's first address the hot button issue of mandatory tithes. Jesus, Peter, Paul, James nor anyone in the New Testament has ever preached the doctrine of New Testament tithe with consequences of missing the rapture to all who didn't pay it. If you desire to pass the ntcc off as a Godly church, we would appreciate an explanation as to why all ntcc ministers preach the false doctrine of tithe. I honestly doubt that you have the guts to tackle this issue because in order to do so, you would have to twist some scriptures and basically lie on this blog which is a public blog. Paul wasn't ashamed, He identified himself to the Corinthian church as: "Paul, called to be an apostle...." I seriously doubt that you will give your name and that is a testament to the fact that the ntcc has very strict control over it's ministers. Most of the issues that we discuss on this blog are supported by scriptures. Usually when an ntcc'r gets on this blog they display an inordinate amount of ignorance in their answers. They usually resort to insults and name calling which you have not done, yet. So you get the benefit of the doubt and I'm sure all of our readers would love to have an explanation as to why tithe doctrine in the ntcc is preached along with an ultimatum of hell for those who don't pay tithe. Where in the bible do you get this teaching. I hope you are do not believe that we are so ignorant and gullible as to believe that tithe was carried over from the Old Testament while all other sacraments were fulfilled by the law. How convenient would that be for people like Kekel and those who you seem to be defending?
You stated the following: "1 Corinthians 9:14 it is the right of a preacher to live off the gospel though Paul waved that right." Why do you think Paul waved that right? Do you think maybe he knew that people would use this to do a little more than "Live off the gospel"? Where do we find the scripture that condones preachers getting rich off of the gospel? You said: "But God blesses whom he chooses to bless. Sometimes we must trust others." If the ntcc is such a Christ-like organization, why is it that they are so secretive about what they are doing with the money that people trust you to spend on the lost? How hard would it be to disclose where all the tithe money is going. I mean, you guys are sending people to hell for not paying tithe and you are in turn asking them to trust you in spending it. Kekel came into the ntcc with nothing. Any money that he supposedly invested came from tithe payers. Do you deny this? How naive do you think we are? We were in the ntcc when Davis used to teach couples that they could survive off of a grocery budget of $40.00 per week. Why would he teach that? He wasn't surviving off of a $40.00 per week grocery budget? I'll give you credit for coming on here and trying to defend the ntcc, but let's get into the meat of the subject. Bring it! Come on, please don't tap dance around this subject. If you are truly a Christian and filled with the Holy Ghost, you should be able to give a biblical answer to all of the issues we have raised. If you do, you will be the first. Briggs could not support any of the tithe doctrine that he preached with scriptures, but we are giving you the benefit of the doubt. The floor is yours.... we are all ears.
Anonymous said:
"Think of it like salvation is arriving at basic training and you know nothing about the military or how to be a good soldier. Drill sergeants don't deal with a first week recruit the same as a soldier just about to graduate. One can do ten push-ups and the other sixty.
In this example the drill sergeant represents the Holy Ghost.
Now imagine the new recruit hears the drill sergeant "encouraging" the other to do more than sixty push ups....he gets discouraged and down in the dumps and loses his motivation "man they have a rule of more than sixty push ups I'll never make it!" and ends up quitting. Well, he wasn't run off and it wasn't even him being talked to. Nor was it a rule, just being pushed to be your best.
DNA said:
I would say that the drill sergeant represents a different spirit, unlike the spirit of Christ whose yolk was easy and his burden was light. Jesus never came across as a drill sergeant and the Holy Ghost never did either. The drill sergeant represents an ntcc pastor who wants his members to all pay tithe, so he teaches that All Christians Pay Tithes And Give In Offerings. There is absolutely no room in the ntcc for people who question this doctrine. There never has been. The drill sergeant/ntcc pastor always, without fail says: All, (A double L, All) recruits/Christians pay tithes and give in offerings. If the new recruit questions this, he is shown old testament scriptures that talk about robbing God without any Old Testament background about the priests receiving this tithe as an agricultural tithe only paid to the tribe of Levi who had no inheritance. What would you say, Anonymous? Seriously? Is tithe still mandatory in the ntcc? Please answer. There are those who will do 60 push ups or pay more than their tithe, like I did for 13 years, but there are also Christians who will call your bluff, and I've seen them run off with my own eyes.
As for comparing this with so called holiness, why don't we look at this a little deeper. Jesus never required so called outward holiness. Never mentioned it one time. How do you suppose Jesus would have dealt with the ntcc and it's inward condemnation towards those who did not apply your outward sanctification rules to themselves, their wives and their families? We know that Davis had very little mercy towards those who didn't comply with his standards. How do you suppose that Jesus would feel about Davis teaching that earings were devil stirrups while wearing a diamond pinky ring and a Rolex watch? Oh, I forgot, that is none of our business. Where does the bible say that a preacher is entitled to financial privacy? Seriously? Do you think Jesus would ignore Davis's double standards? Bring it, anonymous. How do you justify all the people who were run out of the ntcc on a rail because they wouldn't comply to double standards?
The ignorant person who has been leaving insulting comments, I'm guessing is the guy who goes by Buddy. After I wouldn't publish his last comment where he was preaching to us, Buddy left this comment:
"You have failed to give reason, if it is so wrong, why I am blessed. My pastor pays tithe, he gives in offerings and he is blessed. Buddy PS: What about the 2nd mileage book you keep, just wondering??"
Unlike this last commenter, Buddy did not attempt answer any of our questions.
I believe this new anonymous commenter left this comment earlier:
"Preachers don't debate they preach the gospel. The doctrinal statement is available on the NTCC website. It's not hidden and has the supporting scriptures listed."
If this is our new Anonymous commenter that used the drill sergeant allegory, pleas explain how the "supporting scriptures" on the ntcc website support 10% mandatory tithe paid to New Testament pastors. I'm dying to hear this explanation....
Oh, we have to "trust" these liars and swindlers? Why should we? I attended many conferences where six-figure pledges were raised for world missions. I've also known those who have been on mission fields, and have learned from them that they were kept in dire poverty while laboring over there. Simple math reveals that this money wasn't arriving at its represented destination. In fact, I was paying pledges to Panama for months after that work was closed down, and NTCC continued to gladly misappropriate that money. I only found out because my wife ran into the missionaries at the local grocery store and learned that the work was defunct. But we were brainwashed like you to trust the untrustworthy. Open the eyes in your head and engage the dormant brain cells. You're being played, just like we were. These despicable cretins are taking money under false pretenses and lavishing it on themselves. If that's not the case, why are they so reluctant to furnish financial transparency? "Privacy?" Balderdash. The money that comes in isn't their personal slush fund, and the people who provided it have not only the right, but the responsibility to know how it's being administered. RWD, the liar-in-chief, might have told us that if he wanted to spend it all on gumballs it was none of our business, but he was full of crap, just like his successors.
Anonymous said:"Sometimes we must trust others."
It's wise to choose to trust those worthy of it. Speaking of trust the NTCC sure doesn't trust it's members much. i.e. the numerous rules from not eating finger foods to not being able to date without a chaperon or the approval of the pastor. Really it's almost a paranoid mindset that would require such micro management of the members.
Anyway...trust is earned not demanded or taken by coercion and its the key element that allows all this mistreatment to happen. You assume they they have your best interests at heart but no! You're a number. Or numbers. You're a body in a pew and a tithe envelope in a collection bag. That's it. Don't think so? Question them on any of the numerous unbiblical practices and see how much love they show you.
As for the "second mileage book" that buddy was talking about. I suppose he is talking about truck driving log books that I am required to keep. Good try buddy. Log books are modernized now days, it's all done on computers and 75% of the fleets including the one I drive for use electronic log books that do not allow you to keep double logs. I'm not going to tap dance around this issue like in an ntccesque way. I keep one legal log book and I it's impossible for me to cheat on it.
That is funny because I once knew a pastor that kept two sets of books. He was an ntcc pastor, not a baptist, a charismatic or a catholic. People in the ntcc do lots of crazy stuff because they are under so much pressure to produce money and numbers. Now this preacher left the ntcc and before he left he told me to be honest with the General board about this, and I went to a board meeting and was grilled about this. I explained to Davis and the board that I wanted to think the best about this preacher and even though the numbers didn't add up in the books that I was keeping, I didn't have two or three witnesses to make accusations and I didn't know at the time that there was another set of books that this preacher would show to the overseers when they came by to audit the books. More proof that the ntcc is a corrupt organization.
I look at this new Anonymous poster as someone who is thinking about leaving the ntcc. I know for a fact that any one of us would have tried to defend the ntcc false doctrines while we were in the ntcc. But we got him thinking and he feels the need to step out of bounds a little and address these issues from the point of view in which these views have been the staples of ntcc doctrine for decades. We are not trying to disprove the bible here. We want people to believe the bible but if your system of beliefs is influenced by misguided trust in people that taught you things that are not biblical, only you can filter the right from the wrong. I do not want this person to believe us just because we feel strongly about what we are talking about. My hope and prayer for this person is that he actually studies this out for himself and takes an honest look at the people who run the ntcc. If you drop the facade and take a close look at the life of Jesus, not only what he said and taught but how he interacted with people like the woman from the well, the woman taken in adultery, the Pharisees and rulers, the rich and the poor, the sinners who gathered to see him. He never acted like an ntcc preacher. He never had a sense of entitlement or condemned folks for how they dressed. He never demanded tithe or money in exchange for anything. Did Jesus ever single out people who wear ear rings or make up and point their finger at them while blasting them for ungodliness? Can you see Jesus stomping around behind the pulpit going on and on about what people wore or how much they gave in offerings to him? If you are seeing this in any other light, you are not seeing the same Jesus whose life and actions were recorded by the four different authors of the gospels. If you get rid of all the extra doctrine and live according to just the words of Jesus, and pattern your life after what he said and did, you will have a place in heaven. All this other exaggerated sanctification doctrine that evolved 1800 years after Jesus died is not going to miraculously get you into heaven. If you love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself, you are doing the will of Jesus. You don't have to listen to me or believe what I'm saying, but if you take an honest look at what Jesus was all about, you will find that what we are saying is right. We didn't make this up and we are not profiting off of this truth. Pray about it. Read about it. Stop excluding people from heaven. Stop placing stumbling blocks in front of people that only exist in your mind. Don't allow the archaic false doctrines of Davis to influence the way you treat others.
I think one of the first steps to leaving is realizing you'll never get a straight answer to any serious questions and there are many valid ones. Oh they'll answer with some often repeated and memorized junk line and then keep an eye on you as an agitator "who's not quite in all the way" after that.
I remember once my Grandmother shared with me that she asked a deep theological question of her (non NTCC) pastor. He thought about it awhile and replied..."I don't know."
So I'm thinkimg, wow that takes some humility! I could never ever for the life of me see that happen in an NTCC church!
The preachers are not allowed to think, just repeat.
use your discernment let the bible lead you
https://youtu.be/KJmcEAwazD0
Anonymous said….. "No one dragged you to the altar other than Holy Ghost conviction."
Julie says….”Oh yes I was dragged to the altar. I was taken by the hand by many leaders’ wives, my mother, and others. No one asked me if I wanted to go. I have had leaders come to where I am sitting asking me why I wasn’t at the altar did I want to burn in hell or simply tell me to get to the altar. “
Anonymous said….“No one held a gun to your head to make you pay tithe.”
Julie says…… To start with it may not have been a physical gun but it definitely was a spiritual gun. When it is made a heaven or hell doctrine it is a gun to the head. They are so much about giving to the church but not helping those that have nothing to give in return. Just the other day in two different situations I aided those that could not give nothing back. In one situation bring comfort to a couple of children that had recently lost the rest of their family in a house fire. Buying them items the needed and each an item they wanted. Spending time with an elderly lady taking her shopping and helping her by prepping food for future meals. I know to you that is a waste because you believe I should be either making money to tithe to the church or getting in those that can tithe.
Anonymous said…..“No one forced you to say "I do" to anyone.”
Julie says…..“Oh yes they did. No choices there for me. In fact not only were they not choices in saying I do. There was no choices when it was held, there was no choices where it was held, who was there, and even what I was to wear. It was all controlled by the Leaders.”
Anonymous said……. You can't tell me a woman with a pure and Christ-like heart will dress like a prostitute...so the way a person dresses does reflect the heart, yes?
Julie says ….. Well first off I haven’t dressed like a prostitute a day in my life. I Samuel 16:7 .........for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.
Anonymous said…..
“If the members hold the leaders in too much reverence whose fault is that?”
Julie says……It isn’t reverence it is plain “FEAR”. Fear that God would destroy or even kill them if they don’t look up to these leaders this way. I remember being told on a number different occasions of the part in the bible where the earth was opened up and “Do you want this to happen again and to you” They create themselves into idols and lead people to believe they must worship them to be right with God.
Anonymous said “If overzealous members take suggestions as "rules" and "laws" whose fault is that?”
Julie says……“Suggestions you have got to be kidding me. One time I had on a pair of culottes and got in trouble because they looked a little too much like pants they said in the legs. Another time my hair which is very curly had not be smoothed out as much so it appeared shorter and I was accused of trimming it. I had notes written by the leaders to teachers that I was not allowed to wear shorts, sweat pants, or anything other than a dress/skirt for P.E. so it would earn me an “F” with some teachers. I also had leaders write notes about not being able to be in a music class or an art class because of something they were covering that was wrong to NTCC. Notes as well not being able to go to concerts, ball games, and other field trips that school would taking. Why write these notes if it was only a suggestion. One time when I was quite young it was spoken from the pulpit by one leader that God had spoken to him that flower barrettes were a sin and I remember having the flower barrette ripped from my hair. The list could go on about these things. Not suggestions but taught as sins and demands of God.
Anonymous said…..“Maybe some people just can't handle being held accountable”
Julie says…..Tell me about it. Shall we name all those that won’t take accountability? Well to sum it up it is all the leaders of NTCC. So I agree with you some people just can’t handle being held accountable!!!!
Okay Anonymous from 22 Feb you have officially ticked off Freebird.
I HAVE the court documents where my ex states that he was only following pastor's and thus God's word to physically abuse me. I ALSO have the documents backing up the pastor trying to have my ex give him MY registered guns as a gift. I HAVE the court documents stating that the pastor said God would "rain down curses upon me" if I left that fiasco NTCC (it was taken as a threat against my life). I HAVE the court documents that my ex could physically abuse my dogs because God gave him dominion over them and me. I HAVE the memo from the Prosecuting Attorney that he threw my pastor out of the Attorneys office for imitating an attorney. I HAVE the No Contact Order and further court documentation of just how sinister this group really is.
Only since I found other ex-ers did I find out that these evil mindsets are systemic throughout NTCC. Keep pushing me NTCC leadership and you will be revealed.
I doubt we'll see this Anonymous again. There is a lot to answer for here and it would be hard to defend the ntcc with all that has been shared in the last few comments. Basically, Julie and Freebird have totally destroy Anonymous's arguments. Hope you come back Anonymous. Would love to hear what you have to say. Obviously there are some folks out here that disagree with you. The ntcc gets exposed every time someone tries to defend them. I believe this is because there is no defense for what they do. We welcome anyone to try to justify the actions of Davis, Kekel and the rest of the ntcc leadership. If it looks like a cult, and sounds like a cult, and acts like a cult, guess what? It's a cult. People have been used and abused by the ntcc, and now they have their voices back. What did you think would happen? Did you think that all of the people whose lives were ruined for the profit of a few would just go away and die quietly? Sorry to disappoint you but there are a lot of people who have been manipulated and their lives have been altered because of their experience in what was supposed to be a Christian church. Those that remain are either totally blind, have had their consciences seared with a hot iron, are totally naive and gullible or they just don't care about anyone but themselves. Those who read the thousands of testimonies on FACTnet and the rest of the blogs would have to harden their hearts to stay in such an abusive group. Life is too short to waste in a cult. We doubt that you will come back and address any of these issues, in fact we are surprised you even tried to defend these creeps in the first place.
I can see it now.
"We've had reports some people out there on the Internet are saying we've changed! That we've compromised! Well I'm here to tell you God doesn't change! Amen? Well...except He has approved of some small adjustments to our previous policies...like Internet, TV and movies, nothing higher than PG13 unless it's for violence then R is okay, please avert your eyes if breats are exposed but absolutely no full frontal! (Scowls menacingly at the congregation) You ...women...(sneers) trim those split ends now! In some cases women you may work a job and also use some light base makeup. Flesh tones please nothing too extreme. And ladies? No pants but tight dresses are fine as long as you have a shapely backside and please check with a leader to determine if yours is approved. Ok...Conference isn't mandatory anymore and that knocking on doors thing wasn't really working so we I mean God, scrapped that. A little bluegrass music is okay, maybe some jazz or country on a case by case basis. Alright! Can I get an Amen? (Holds ear theatrically) But one thing God will never change! All Christians A L L pay tithe and give in the offerings!!!"
New Testament Christian Churches Incorporated is at a critical moment in their existence. They have to change now and become more mainstream or wither on the vine and die. Cults and cultlike groups always,have one thing in common: a leader with a strong personality and charisma with the ability to control the group. That was Davis and they don't have that person anymore.
As it seems they have chosen to change, in time as new members get in not knowing the history, the past of NTCC will be forgotten. It is still very possible that the current leadership won't be able to hold it together and it will cease to exist by steady loss of members and not enough growth.
One can always hope anyway.
It would be nice if people came to their senses. Our hope is that folks in the ntcc will realize that the ntcc is a scam and that God will open their eyes. Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? But ye have despised the poor. James 2:5-6
They are making merchandise of the people of God and many know this and are a part of it. The focus is so often about collecting money and a person is judged by what they give. Money is accumulated by the wealthy few while people struggle to get by. They mortgage their futures while the benefactors profit. They quote prosperity preachers to the gullible masses while ignoring the class of people that James talked about. In fact they ignore the majority of scriptures in the New Testament. They do not pattern their lives after Jesus, nor do they follow the teachings of Paul.
People in the ntcc are like children in the back seat of a car on their way to Disney Land. They want to stop at every restaurant and fun place they see out their window not realizing that the place they are actually going is much better and much bigger.
Salvation is dampened by the rules and all the beat downs they get. People are held back from doing anything worthwhile. Boundaries are placed all around them to keep them from achieving anything great in their lives. Individual accomplishment is looked at as a sin and people are hampered from doing anything productive unless it falls under the guidelines of what the ntcc teaches them is acceptable. When you live in a box that makes you ask permission and seek approval from another man, how can you ever become a man yourself? Do you really have to ask someone for permission to talk to another human being? Do you have to ask your pastor to talk to a sister? Do you have to ask your pastor for permission to go home or visit relatives or attend weddings or funerals? Do you think Davis ever asked for permission to do anything in his life?
These false apostles and teachers would never jump through the same hoops that they require you to jump through and none of this is biblical. It's all about control and lording over people so that they will stay in their place. Don't ask any probing questions or you will surely be jacked up. Don't expect any accountability or transparency. You don't have a right to know where your money is going and if you ask, you are a fault finding sinner. It's none of your business, they have a right to their privacy, you bunch of fault finding losers. This is who they are and this is their attitude towards you if you don't give them your unwavering loyalty.
You know if people want to be mesmerized by hucksters and they're happy than so be it. The problems start when eventually the light bulb comes on and they're left in an empty room with a bunch of broken people looking at them wondering how their own father allowed all this poverty and pretending.
I don't remember happiness while I was there. I remember being in either fight mode, spiritual pride mode, or self flogging mode (where you enjoyed being jacked up by the pastor).
I just don't remember a time where I was truly happy.
Mike
I was very happy in the beginning as I was living clean for the first time in my adult life. But NTCC doesn't get the credit for that, God does.
But over time things changed. My wife became depressed and then got sick. I began to realize we were busy 6 days out of 7 working for them. Spending gas money soul winning, driving the wheels off our very used car. Giving thousands in tithe and offerings
No family time. Never time with the kids. Family is not important to them. doubt they see it as a hinderence.
By the time I left I was an unhappy man indeed.
That first week out...seriously it felt like I'd been released from prison.
*that's meant to be no doubt they see it as a hinderence.
I say no doubt because they literally told us having kids was a hinderence to the work of the Lord.
Ironically their org would probably be bigger if they didn't discourage children. Just look at the Mormons!
Instead of getting right with God, you people just make excuses about your angry with God blaming others for your dirty heart. Unless you repent you likewise shall perish. Turn your hearts to the Lord while there is still time.
Anonymous said...
Instead of getting right with God, you people just make excuses about your angry with God blaming others for your dirty heart. Unless you repent you likewise shall perish. Turn your hearts to the Lord while there is still time.
DNA said:
Normally I wouldn't waste time publishing a comment like this, but I decided to let this one through because it is reminiscent of how ntcc preachers come across. This is exactly how they preach at people. This is an absolute display of ignorance. This gets down to the heart of what the ntcc is all about. Buddy or whoever this is has no specific excuse for condemning others. There is no specific sin that we have committed that he is calling out. This is exactly what the ntcc does. They create an environment of guilt and fear that self righteous and simple minded people like Buddy spend the rest of their lives trying to emulate. People that do this are cowards. There is no substance to their accusations. What makes this person such a great judge of whose heart is dirty? This is a shallow person that can not defend the actions of his ntcc friends.
This is exactly what the ntcc is all about. This is why so many people leave the ntcc. They do not need some uneducated, ignorant hypocrite telling them that they need to repent for doing nothing wrong. They are literally running people off in huge numbers because they are like Buddy. They can not control their tongue. They can't help themselves. One of the reasons that they don't comment on these blogs very often is because they are not use to having their own words thrown back in their faces. They can't handle it. They are used to dishing it out but when some one serves it up to them on a platter, they get beside themselves and act a fool.
The ntcc septic tank is full and the refuse is backing up into their own houses. You are what you eat. Ntcc'rs have been fed a steady diet of judgement and condemnation and this is all they know. It stands to reason that they would regurgitate the same wasteful and recycled spiritual fecal matter that they have been fed for so many years. "Turn your hearts to the Lord while there is still time". Really? Are we supposed to pattern our lives after the example of the ntcc? Molesting children and committing adultery? Are we supposed to hate our neighbor and love money like the ntcc? Are we supposed to preach tithe or hell and get rich off of ignorant people that don't read their bibles? If they read their bibles they wouldn't pay tithe to the likes of Kekel or any of the ntcc hypocrites who condemn people for Old Testament doctrine.
Warren said:
"That first week out...seriously it felt like I'd been released from prison."
DNA said:
Ain't that the truth! If you leave a church and it feels like you were released from prison, you just might have been in a cult. There is definitely freedom outside of the ntcc. While you are in, you are subject to all their man made rules. Soul winning in the ntcc is about as unfruitful as going penguin hunting in the Mojave Desert. You might get a few people out to church/cult meetings and one out of a hundred might hang around, but how spiritual are they going to be? Being an ntcc member does not make a person saved any more than water makes you a fish. I honestly think that you would have a much better chance of being a Christian in a Baptist or Catholic church than you would in the ntcc.
Getting control of your life is a good thing. God doesn't want other people to make your decisions for you. God didn't make us men and women so that we would have to ask another man for permission to make adult decisions. When you become a Christian and all your actions and decisions have to be approved by another man, you are in a position where you are being controlled and manipulated. When you are a Christian and you are in control of your own actions and decisions and you choose to follow Christ of your own accord then you get to reap the benefits and blessings of God instead of some hireling collecting your tithe and boasting about how God has blessed him.
Anonymous said...
"Instead of getting right with God, you people just make excuses about your angry with God blaming others for your dirty heart. Unless you repent you likewise shall perish. Turn your hearts to the Lord while there is still time."
You know it touches me brother to see such genuine and heartfelt concern for my soul and future. Thank you.
Would this "getting right" require returning to NTCC or would just not saying anything about them anymore be enough?
Anyway it's clear why you're the chosen mouthpiece of God on here. Your compassion, understanding and deep knowledge of the Bible are apparent to all and come across in your brilliant comment!
Thanks buddy!
I would have tried to offer a defense but who can withstand such wisdom?
Don and Ange said: "You might get a few people out to church/cult meetings and one out of a hundred might hang around, but how spiritual are they going to be?"
I have actually apologized to others that I had brought to church who have also left the borg, that I ever invited them. And I carry a burden of guilt but I'm happy to say that all the people I brought out soul winning that got in, have left!
With all respects.You know yes there maybe some that are not right or out sinning and yes its their fault. But pastors have faults to and alot of you ntcc pastors out there that act like that they can never go wrong and that do come short,that do wrong, make a mistake, or abuse their athority, well it's covered up to save their reputation or the reputation of the orginzation. Yea people are reponsible for themselves but the ones out there that have returned to sin can be the result of a pastor that has failed. And I've seen that with my own experience. For me, I'm continuing to serve God, so do NOT count me in with your "sinner" group label.
Even so I'd rather be a straight up out in the open unapologetic sinner than a hide behind a facade hypocritical Pharisee church sinner.
I'm convinced the later will receive the greater condemnation.
Anonymous said:
"Yea people are responsible for themselves but the ones out there that have returned to sin can be the result of a pastor that has failed."
DNA said:
AMEN!!! They are quick to tell you to shut off your brain as they quote the "Obey them that have the rule over you" scripture, but they forget the part of that scripture that states that they have to give an account for your soul. When they run people off for stupid stuff like facial hair or wearing shorts, they are going to have to give an account for that. When they exclude women from salvation because they wear make up or ear rings, they are going to have to give an account for that too. When they tell folks that they are going to miss the rapture because they didn't pay tithe, they are going to have to stand before God and explain why they preached that erroneous doctrine that is not in the bible. They are not right with God and they will have to give an account for preaching false doctrine. They want to send you to hell for not participating in their 7 day a week mandatory functions, while they are straight up preaching lies. If they are too ignorant to know what the bible says, than they shouldn't be preaching it. If Jesus didn't preach it; What makes them so spiritual that they think they have to preach it? They can't even stick to the basics of Christianity, like Salvation for instance. They can't even keep a soul saved for crying out loud, because their too busy trying to sanctify them ntcc style. While souls all around them are dying and going to hell, they are worried about what people are wearing. While flames are burning they are worried about tithe. While the lake of fire is being fueled they are blasting people for not asking permission to talk to a sister. They want to preach hell fire and brimstone to their congregations, well that's fine. But guess what? They are not exempt from keeping the same word of God that they accuse you of violating. They play people for total and complete fools, and they expect you to subject yourself to their condemnation while they break every commandment and rule that Jesus taught. Hypocrites!
Regarding the original topic, it doesn't surprise me this kind of worthless garbage is taught at their BS. They're not accredited and never will be. When you leave that diploma is worthless. If they could get accredited no doubt they would...because of all the GI Bill money they would take in. But how can they? How many of their teachers even have a real degree? My guess would be zero.
What a sad joke. And not funny.
I wonder how Kekel feels about the book of James. He probably has torn the entire book out of his bible so he doesn't have to live under the conviction. James said, "Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you." James and Jesus had a lot to say about the rich. Luke 6:24 Jesus said: "But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation." James gets a lot more specific about how they obtained their riches: James 5:4 "Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth."
What about the ntcc laborers who have cried out to God because the rich ntcc leaders have reaped the profit of their labors, and fraudulently kept back the blessings that were meant for them? They sowed their blood, sweat and tears in the field while the Kekels and Davises reaped the financial rewards. They sent their tithes and paid into escrow accounts, took up collections for revivalists and sent a lot of money to Graham for World Missions, but so much of this money was kept back by fraud and used to increase the riches of a few select individuals. The ntcc leadership has wealth and therefore they have power. They have used this power to oppress those who are subservient to them. James told the rich that "their gold and silver was cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire."
We are on record for calling out these hypocrites. We aren't making up scriptures and twisting them for our own benefit. We are using the bible which they claim to believe, to expose their hypocrisy and to pronounce judgement on them who have used it to judge others. They use the bible to put fear into the hearts of their followers so they will continue to support their luxurious lifestyles. They disregard the scriptures that would apply to them while they twist the scriptures to condemn others. Hypocrites, snakes and vipers they are!
Proverbs 11:22 "As a jewel of gold in a swine's snout, so is a fair woman which is without discretion."
There are a lot of women in the ntcc who have gold jewels in their snouts. Nichelle Tieman and Tanya Kekel come to mind. They both have a long history of manipulating people. They both break up marriages and relationships to fulfill their own greedy desires. They trample all over the poor so they can feed their insatiable desire to obtain more wealth.
Riches are a snare to so many in the ntcc. How much blood has been spilled to feed their greed? Seriously, how many people have been ignored and marginalized because of money and numbers? As long as the money keeps rolling in they will never change. If you cut them off from their money, you will see their true colors. If all of the local pastors would keep their tithe in their churches or not require people to pay tithe, they would quickly find out what Kekel was all about, and they also would find out what their wives are all about. Their wives are just as money hungry as they are. They have become accustomed to living the jet set lifestyle of the rich. The board members wives love to go on all expense paid vacations to visit churches and be worshiped along side of their husbands. They will talk about how much they love and appreciate you until you cut them off financially.
What would happen if you told them, "We have decided that we are not going to collect tithe from our church members because there is no justification for it in the bible? We don't want you to come visit our church because we can't afford to pay you. Go find some other sucker who doesn't see you for what you are and have them pay you $500 to be graced with your presence." Cut them off their riches and see how their "Christlike love" shines as a beacon to the last move of God on earth.
We don't normally discuss politics on this blog but a close comparison can be drawn with what is going on in politics to what is going on in the ntcc. I hate discussing politics because it is a divisive subject and people can argue all day about it. I personally have friends that disagree with my own political views and I do my best not to discuss politics with them. If anyone on this blog disagrees with my own political views, I will not hold this against you. You have earned the right to believe whatever you wish to believe and I don't think any less of you for it. Politics has become so corrupt that it reminds me a lot of the ntcc and it's leaders. On one side you have the Democrats who want Government to be involved in every aspect of your life. They want to raise your taxes, they want to take away your right to bear arms, your freedom of religion, your freedom of speech, right to life and they also would like for you to have little to no say in any of this. What could possibly be worse than that? I'll tell you what is worse than that. Even though I hate liberalism, there is something much worse. The republican party claims to be conservative and to want to restore everyone's rights. They say that they believe in smaller Government, less taxes, religious freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, pro life and so on. The problem is not in what they say they stand for, but in what they actually do when they get elected. The Democrats are the more honorable party in that they actually stand for what they believe in and they will die fighting for their cause. The republicans, however, will cave in on every issue they claim to believe in and they don't have the stomach to fight for their principles.
I believe in the constitution and the bill of rights. I think our fore fathers had it right for the most part when they wrote these documents. The bill of rights was written not to tell us what our rights were, but rather to convey what rights could not be taken away from us by the Government or anyone else. I'm not saying all of this to argue about politics and I know there are many hot button issues that we will never see eye to eye on. I personally don't think that the Government should be allowed to ram any of this down our throats. I don't think that the Government works efficiently at all. They waste our money and they lie to us every day. They have totally trampled under foot the constitution and both the democrats and republicans are responsible for this.
Because of the lack of trust that people have for their government, this year the leading candidate is Donald J. Trump. He has promised that he is going to clean up Washington D.C. and he says a lot of things that I agree with. However, he has not done a lot of things that I agree with. He makes claims and promises to do things that are the opposite of what he has done all of his life. As you may know, I have a huge problem with people that say one thing and do another. They can not be trusted as far as you can throw an Elephant, (no pun intended).
Which brings us to the parallel that can be drawn between the ntcc and politics. The ntcc says many of the right things. They are right on a lot of issues. They are right enough that many of us were sucked into their swirling vortex and we became what they wanted us to be in most cases. The problem with the ntcc is very similar to the problem with politicians. They are absolutely corrupt to the core. They appear to be righteous and holy and just and principled and loving and caring, but when you look at their history and the way they have contradicted everything they claim to stand for, it makes a lot of people want to hate God. So many people have left this organization thinking, "If this is what God is all about, I don't want anything to do with Him".
The reason it is like this in the ntcc is very similar to why people are sick and tired of politics. They are tired of the corruption. They are tired of being lied to. They are tired of Politicians telling them that if you elect them that they will fight for your rights and change the way things are done in Government. The ntcc preachers will tell you that if you follow them and support them with your tithes and offerings that they will fight for you, pray for you, have your back and love and care for you. But what do they actually do? They do the same things that politicians do. They lie to you and they deceive you. They take your money and send it to a slush fund in Washington, (not D.C.), but Graham, where Kekel dips into it whenever he needs an upgrade to his mansion or an all expense paid vacation, or a new car or any expense that he can pass off as "The work of the Lawrd". He is just like the sleaziest of politicians. He is the Commander in Chief of the ntcc by inheritance because he married into wealth and privilege. He is surrounded by people who are willing to bow down to him and do anything he commands them to do. Just like a politician you have to look at his history and the things he has done before you believe that he will do the things that he promises. Look at the direction his feet are pointing before you follow him. He says he loves God and wants to lead you to Christ, but what has he actually done for the past four decades? How many people has he fought for. Does he actually love you, or does he love your money? If he loved you, he wouldn't be getting rich off of you. Did Jesus get rich off of anyone? Of course not. Jesus gave his life for you. What has Kekel given for you? Nothing. A big goose egg. This is why Jesus said, "All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not." Mat 23:3
With NTCC, you not only have to refrain from doing after their works, it's also necessary to reject what they say, because they are a false doctrine factory running at capacity. They sprinkle their speech with a few tidbits of truth as bait, but most of it is utter BS. Don't be deceived; if you want to be a bible believer, cut their static out and go straight to the source yourself. It's amazing how little of what is found there resembles the rhetoric coming over their bully pulpits. Avoid being a dupe; think for yourself. You don't need some fallible (and fallen) "leader" to spoon feed you a contorted version of what's right in front of you in black and white. Trust your own judgment and break free from the NTCC orbital path, which only goes in circles and will never move you upward. After years of denial, I finally got to the point where the discrepancy between their words and actions and what I read in the bible about Jesus became too vast to rationalize and ignore any longer. They are fakes and false prophets, and the sooner you escape, the sooner you can start growing spiritually.
Only because I'm curious but does anyone know the current status of Ashmore's church? As far as attendance is concerned...
Also, is NTCC losing members or is this dramatic shift in policy helping them.
Thanks for any info.
March is Bible Appreciation Month. A proverb for each day of the month, and some New Testament sprinkled in for good measure. No commentary, just a couple of verses to reflect upon:
Proverbs 1:19
"So are the ways of every one that is greedy of gain; which taketh away the life of the owners thereof."
1 Peter 5:2
"Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;"
My question is if salvation is preached at ntcc churches and people are filled with the Holy Ghost does God lead people there? And if the devil is there too in the leaders and teaching are the devil and God both in the services? Is it better for sinners not to go at all than to go and hear about Jesus? Is it the best choice for everyone in the organization to leave, no matter what? It seems very confusing to me.
1 John 2:27King James Version (KJV)
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
davis said himself that if the devil preached from the bible people can be saved.
people aren't saved because a righteous person says jesus saves.
a Christian, no mayter their position (pastor, teacher, etc), can preach the bible and the hearers can be saved... even though the Christian that is preaching has sin in their life. only God knows if it is willful sin or something they are struggling with.
Jesus said to do what they say but do not after their works because they say and do not.
maybe God did lead me there to be saved, go through an experience of corrupt leaders and then to exit as a stronger Christian that is now wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove.
Anonymous said...
My question is if salvation is preached at ntcc churches and people are filled with the Holy Ghost does God lead people there? And if the devil is there too in the leaders and teaching are the devil and God both in the services? Is it better for sinners not to go at all than to go and hear about Jesus? Is it the best choice for everyone in the organization to leave, no matter what? It seems very confusing to me.
DNA said:
Salvation is preached in hundreds of thousands of churches every week. The promise of the Holy Ghost was not just to the ntcc or any other specific group. Satan himself appears as an angel of light. You asked a very good question and I'm sure that a lot of people have milled these same thoughts over and over again in their minds. I know I have and I'm sure if others are honest they will admit that they have had the same questions at some point in their lives. Salvation is pretty simple, and Christianity was never supposed to be so complicated. When sorting all of this out, you have to judge the ntcc leadership and it's history by the same standards they judged you by. They used bible scriptures to justify many of their actions, but if you look carefully, many of those scriptures were twisted and used in a deviant way. You have to look carefully at the life of Jesus and then look carefully at the life of Davis, or Kekel, or any one of the so called Apostles/board members in the ntcc and ask yourself if they have conducted themselves the same way that Jesus did.
For instance. Davis would often use the word "nig*er", and then he would quote the scripture: "Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them." You have to ask yourself, would Jesus do this? There were religious people all over the place when Jesus walked the earth. The devil was also present. The Pharisees were the religious hypocrites of that time just like the ntcc and many other groups are now. Yes it would be better for the people in the ntcc to leave than to sit there and allow these hucksters to use and abuse them. The same way that it would have been better for the followers of Warren Jeffs to leave their cult and seek the truth, it would be beneficial to the members of the ntcc to leave their cult. But guess what? Those cult members are doing the same thing that the ntcc cult members are doing. They are ignoring the actions of their cult leaders. First you have to recognize the ntcc for what it is. It is a cult, period. You might just be in a cult when you see dozens of preachers getting vasectomies because they are being told that they are hindering the work of God by having children. You might just be in a cult when you are not providing for your family but you are giving in offerings so that the preacher can have a diamond pinky ring. You have to open your eyes and see the hypocrisy and properly identify the leaders of the church/cult. Why do they have a compound with a fence around it? Is this normal? Drive down the streets of your neighborhood and look at all the churches and see how many of them have fences around all of their buildings and their houses. How many ministers in other churches sign their houses over to the church? It's pretty shocking when you look past the stained glass windows and the church steeples.
We are living in perilous times. People are looking for signs and wonders. They want something spectacular. They want to see miracles and showmanship. All Jesus wants is for people to be love him and love others. If the ntcc would concentrate on these two principles and stop worrying about what people are wearing they would be much better off. You don't have to force yourself to go to a church that isn't right. I know the ntcc used Hebrews 11:25, "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together...." to force people to attend every church function that they had, but you also have to be careful who you assemble with. Jesus also said, "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." If you can find actual Christians that are not in it for the money then fellowship with them. But your salvation doesn't and shouldn't depend on someone else. If you were in a prison or stranded on an island without some preacher collecting your tithe, you could still go to heaven. In fact you would probably do much better than you would attending cult meetings.
Well this is what I think...if you're a hard case like I was, stubborn, hard headed...with lots of baggage God will lead you, or take advantage of the ride offered to hear the gospel. Then you get saved. And here is where it gets interesting. When you're saved and mature in Christ, He will try and lead you right back out again. This is where the brain washing and fear of man kick in.
The Spirit deals with your heart about how the NTCC, the leaders and preachers violate the scriptures. God deals with your heart to make a choice. You hear a man's NTCC voice in your head calling the other voice the devil. But the other voice is calm and quiet but firm. And patient.
So tell me, is it God or the devil moving your heart and soul to leave?
I remember my pastor saying just pray and read the Bible. Well, I'm here to say...if you do that and are sincere and humble:
You'll leave.
It takes courage. It takes admitting you were duped. It's a valuable lesson...but only if you actually leave.
Don't you hear it? Don't waste your life serving men! There is more power in the Lord than you realize, claim your liberty and walk!
Sorry preached a little there.
to anonymous even paul said some preach christ for the wrong reasons but he rejoices that Christ is preached
Don and Ange said: "I know the ntcc used Hebrews 11:25, "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together....""
This is where the ntcc teaching gets downright silly. If everyone attending any church or assembling of themselves applied this verse as ntcc applies it they'd never leave whatever church they belonged to!
"You know I wanted to leave before Reverend Jones passed out the death juice but I was afraid to forsake the assembling of ourselves together!"
One thing to watch for if you still go there, what they choose to interpret literally and how literally and how much it supports their conduct no matter much they have to twist the Bible all up like a pretzel. They will take one short verse and build a doctrine or teaching and ignore five detailed verses that contradict it.
Seriously it's insulting. How stupid they think you are. Caveat Emptor.... In used cars and churches.
Sorry, I got my scripture reference wrong. I quoted Hebrews 10:25, but wrote 11:25. Oops.
They don't get a pass from me for their evil deeds, but I will say that being in NTCC taught me that I was far more capable than I realized. When one lives for years with both hands tied behind his back, wearing a blindfold and earplugs, and still manages to survive, he discovers that he can do almost anything. Now I'm amazed at how people struggle to survive and progress outside that environment, because since I jettisoned the NTCC baggage, it feels like I'm coasting downhill. I guess it's true that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. But regardless of any long-term salutary effects, there are still scars, and the abusers are still accountable for their actions.
I've been told that all leadership is good leadership. Sounds like NTCC is good in the sense of what not to be...
What's too bad is some of the goals they were trying to achieve had good in them.
Keep soldiers out of bars/strip clubs.
Keep soldiers out of the barracks.
Premarital sex...
I'm sure there are dozens of things that could be pointed to as "good" for soldiers and civilians lives.
So how does a church that's doing the right thing balance the good with trying to acquire money for buildings/salaries and so on.
It seems like corruption is not far behind church growth. In NTCC's case it sounds like corruption was there from the start.
Anonymous said: "I'm sure there are dozens of things that could be pointed to as "good" for soldiers and civilians lives."
That's the carrot. And they can point to positive change as a result but their taking credit for it is kind of ridiculous.
Then comes the stick, and if you stay after being beat over the head metaphorically, they know they can pretty much do what they want with you. A person becomes like a trained dog.
Warren, so true.
If they can get away with crazy demands then they will always demand craziness. Jump, sit, roll over. They really like the roll over command.
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