""COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES! RUN FROM THE ANGER OF THE LORD!" Jer. 51:45
So, now, that Ashmore has left, we find him warning others through what appears to be some kind of prophesy of doom. Run for your lives, he says in capital letters. Now that I've left after 40 years of abusing people, You need to run like I did from the anger of the Lord. Are we really supposed to run from the anger of the Lord? How about Repenting and making things right with the Lord and the many people you hurt, JRA? Come out of 'Her' my people. What 'her' is he referring to? The whore is what he says later. So now all of a sudden the ntcc is the Whore once he decides to leave for a bigger piece of the pie?
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| This Ex-Minister Flees the Great Whore of NTCC to Follow The Great Ash-Whore: Out of the Frying Pan and Into the Fire. |
"Thank God other ministers are coming to their senses and exiting the CULT!"
Now that you've decided to leave ntcc, it's all of a sudden a cult? This whole paragraph sounds like much of it was plagiarized from the Xer blogs. Thank God that "other ministers", (who cares about the church schlubs), are coming to their senses and exiting the cult, (in which I was an active leader of abuse for 40 years). Thank God because now Ashmore can exploit them and use them to build HIS Cult's bank account from tithe and offerings. You know, fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. If you join up with this Exploiter of the Brethren, don't be surprised to find yourself just as broke and worn out as you were in the ntcc!
"We feel great sorrow for those who are still blinded by their sinister methods and for all the church members who still suffer mental and spiritual abuse under the KING KONG type ministries behind some of their pulpits."
That's enough to make my oatmeal hit the wall. Wow, wow and double wow! Those sinister methods? Which sinister methods might those be James Ross? The ones that cause mental and spiritual abuse? Like the mental and spiritual abuse you caused to people like Lisa, Moreno, Ken and so many others that have such fond memories of how you abused them? King Kong type ministries? Really JRA? What type of King Kong ministries might you be referring to? And why did you wait till RWD died before you got this revelation? It seems awfully convenient that you hung around through all those abusive years and endured all of those sinister methods, and then just up and decided to leave after R-dub kicked the bucket? SMH!
"Those who don't know what's going on are to be pitied for their ignorant continuance under the facade of a "holiness" organization."
Did you know what was going on during your 40 years of ignorant continuance under the facade of a 'holiness' organization? What was your role in this organization during this 40 years of ignorance? Do you really expect everyone to ignore your role in the ntcc and think that all of a sudden you've changed and now suddenly have everyone's best interest at heart even though you haven't admitted your role in the ntcc or taken responsibility for the many people you've hurt?
"We are hearing reports from many who have gone through hell on earth under the manipulative and controlling leaders they once trusted, only to find out later what they really were!"
Wow, James. That's quite the narrative. Where were you when all these reports were being issued about the manipulative and controlling leaders? Many people once trusted you; I don't suppose that you put anyone through hell on earth, did you Jim? We would ask the Moreno family; but you put them through such hell on earth they are now dead because of it! "Only to find out later what they really were?" Really? What were you? What are people finding out right now about what you really were? It seems like you chose to be part of this bunch for 40 years until RWD died and there was no place for you among them any more. Is that why you decided to 'run for your life'?!
"Spouses have been recycled under the sinister notion that one should leave and divorce their spouse if said spouse LEAVES the GROUP (even if they are still serving God!)"
Sounds like you've been reading our blog again. Is this a new revelation about the spouses that were recycled? What did you do for those spouses while you were in Board meetings witnessing the pressure that was being put on some of these families that made one person leave and another stay? Who helped enforce this sinister notion, or who turned a blind eye to it for 40 years while so many families were destroyed? Can you hear me now?
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| This String of Ntcc Ministers being Led by Ashmore are Walking out of the Ntcc and Into the Jesus Revival Ministries to Follow Ashmore who's Eyes were Opened After Forty Years of Walking Around Blind in Egypt, Or did he Really Have his Eyes Open the Whole Time? |
"The Day of wrath awaits these "blind leaders of the blind" and may all whose eyes are opened flee this Whore while there is still time!"
It's a good thing that you were the only one that was pleasing in God's sight during your 40 years in the ntcc. I guess the day of wrath is going to pass over you just because you left. Were you not a blind leader of the blind yourself? Or were you different than all of your ntcc buddies? When you make the recommendation that all whose eyes are open, 'flee this Whore', are you referring to the ntcc or its current leaders? Were they considered to be a Whore while you were holding the bag and some of the highest offices and perks in the organization? When did they become a Whore, after you left?
I'm not buying it. I would have believed you if you would have left and sought forgiveness from the many people that you have hurt; but I'm not buying it now. Instead it seems like you weren't getting the praise and payroll from kekel that you expected after davis departed. It sounds like you weren't getting your piece of the pie, so you took your ball and went home. Now you want to drag a bunch of duped ministers to follow you so you can continue to exploit them and won't have to work.
It was brought to our attention that an attempt to make a comment failed. We tested our comment page and found that it is now working. Perhaps we were editing the blog post when the attempt was made. It should work now. Let us know if you have any problems.
ReplyDeleteDear Ashmore,
ReplyDeleteDo you believe that the Bible is the inherent Word of God, infallible and never changing?
Matthew 5:23-24 reads: If you are offering your gift at the alter and remember your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the alter and go. First be reconciled to your brother then come and offer your gift.
Hebrews 10:26 If we go on sinning deliberately after receiving knowledge of truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin.
James, I think you know where I am going with this. You have harmed others in unimaginable ways and have never reconciled with them even when given the opportunity.
You have gone on sinning for 40 years with your knowledge of the abuses both physically spiritually and financially that occurred in NTCC.
Before you Ashmore supporters start throwing around scriptures of forgiveness to the victims, I ask you who in the eyes of God has the greater responsibility to reconcile first, the minister or the victims of the minister? I look forward to reading your reply. Oh wait, I only hear crickets...
Yes D&A, this and the child abuse subject has really hit a nerve in me. I despise people and groups that knowingly abuse and exploit others.
Freebird
The following comment from anonymous was copied and pasted along with our response to this thread because the comment was very good and brought up a subject that people need to pay attention to. We feel it is relevant because it is in response to Standing for truths lame comment.
ReplyDeleteStanding for truth's lame comment:
Standing For Truth said...
You guys have created a another cult of your own spreading falsehood. If you haven't noticed yet Rev. J. R. Ashmore nor Rev. Meinecke have stopped preaching the Word of God just because of your blasphemy against them. There is two new videos on Rev. Meinecke. You guys are all so evil.
We carried this forward and the next comment because the comment left was made from a mobile phone. If you reply to another comment on your mobile phone, Google Blogger automatically stacks your comment underneath the comment you are responding to and instead of your comment showing up where most of the readers are following at the bottom of the page, it is often overlooked. Even if you leave a comment on your mobile phone, however, the comment will still display at the bottom of the page on your desktop computer. That is for future reference to all who may be concerned.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeletehow is it false when i have eyewitness and ear-witness proof that i was lied about on the reason I left?
DNA said:
Because the very reason they try to destroy your credibility is for the purpose of restoring their own in the eyes of their followers. When someone leaves for a good reason, it makes the ntcc leadership or local pastor feel the need to project blame onto the parting individual or family. Most people in the ntcc are so brain washed that they don't process the departure of a person or family for themselves. They allow the Pastor to explain it to them and since that pastor is idolized as if he were the man that God chose to represent the Almighty with every word that proceeds from his mouth, everyone in the church believes him and nobody thinks for themselves or tries to figure out what really happened. So all of the brain washed church members believe the lie that their pastor or board leader told them instead of using their own brain and finding out for themselves. This is why the ntcc leadership hates it when you ask questions about people who leave. They don't want you to think about it or process it; they just want you to write their name down on the list as another casualty and label them a reprobate and forget about them for the rest of your life.
For example: Woman leaves well liked ntcc minister because said minister beat and abuse their child and the ntcc leadership treated her like she was the problem while they coddled and promoted the abusive man. The Damage control freaks in the ntcc, immediately start to discredit the wife of said abusive minister by telling the church members that the wife was a disobedient and rebellious God hating woman who fought against her husbands ministry and was a hateful woman who despised God. While the Damage control freaks tear down this woman, they will also build up the abuser by saying, for example: Elliot Gesang has life of service and sacrifice to the Lord and has been a pillar of faithfulness and loyalty. He loves God and souls and is a generous loving perfect wonderful reflection of the Most high Himself. And if that doesn't do the trick, they'll throw in some lies or some suppositions.
In turn, everyone in the church thinks that the wife is a whore and reprobate who hates God, souls and the ntcc, while they think that the abusive jerk is a faithful dedicated man who has given his life to the ministry. That is the power of a public platform. When people gather together to listen to a Man who claims to be God's voice piece and that man and all the leaders who support him speak in unison against a victim of abuse, every single person in the congregation seems to shut off their brain and believe the abuser, every time without fail.
Freebird said:
ReplyDelete"Before you Ashmore supporters start throwing around scriptures of forgiveness to the victims, I ask you who in the eyes of God has the greater responsibility to reconcile first, the minister or the victims of the minister? I look forward to reading your reply. Oh wait, I only hear crickets..."
DNA said:
And this really gets down to the heart of the matter. Who is responsible? Some people read many of the accounts that victims have shared and they look for a reason to blame the victim. Ntcc'rs and ntcc sympathizers often do not even want to consider that any part of a victim's testimony may be true. Others have an agenda to discredit the victim because they have been on the giving side of the abuse, and they feel guilty about what they have done to others, so they find reasons to discredit the victims. Now, I personally believe that there are some people who lie about abuse and some that tell the truth. Many times victims will lie when there is a motive and that motive is often money. Nobody is getting rich by spilling their guts on this blog. We have received much more testimony that we haven't published on this blog because people tell us who they are and when you don't have a name, there is less credibility. The one's who do leave their names get their testimonies published and when we comb over all of the facts and supporting testimonies and events we will support those victims on our blog. When you have a person who is a minor and they get molested, raped or even if the victim is interpreted somehow to "UNLAWFULLY" give their consent, we support the victim over the sleazy ntcc pastor every time. Which takes us to the heart of this comment shared by Freebird.
An ntcc pastor claims to be the voice of God and everything they do is often interpreted as being led by God and they claim to be the mouthpiece of God, doing God's will and sharing God's thoughts on all that we say or do. That person is in a higher position of trust and responsibility than any other person on planet earth if you consider the eternal ramifications of their words and deeds. So how about it Ashmore? Let's re-ask the question to Ashmore and any other minister in the ntcc who claims to be God's minister. "Who in the eyes of God has the greater responsibility to reconcile first, the minister or the victims of the minister?" This question stands all by itself there should not be any doubt about the correct answer. The problem is that ministers will not hold themselves accountable. They want all the perks and the recognition that comes along with their title. They love to sit in the chief seats at their feasts and receive praise from their peers and fellow leaders. They soak up all the benefits and all of God's promises whether or not they have done anything worthy of being eligible for those promises. There is nothing lower on this planet than a person who claims to be of God and treats the weakest people who God loves as their own personal object of abuse.
Freebird said:
ReplyDelete"You have gone on sinning for 40 years with your knowledge of the abuses both physically spiritually and financially that occurred in NTCC."
DNA said:
Ashmore was given a copy of my letter to him and asked directly over the phone by a previous ntcc minister about the way he treated people and his knowledge of abuse and financial impropriety on the part of the ntcc, and Ashmore would not take any responsibility whatsoever for any of the abuse allegations and denied knowing of any financial indiscretion. So 40 years of operating as one of the highest ranking board members in the "Great Whore" and he says that they didn't tell him anything. He seems to claim to be a man of God, so why didn't God tell him anything when it could have been helpful to all those who are still blinded by their sinister methods and for all the church members who still suffer mental and spiritual abuse under the KING KONG type ministries behind some of their pulpits. Really Ashmore? Some of "their" pulpits? What about your pulpit? Was anyone being blinded by your sinister methods or is anyone still suffering from mental and spiritual abuse under your King Kong type ministry? Do you claim that you were right with God all those years or did you just repent and get saved less than a year ago when you decided to leave the Great Whore?
OK, so Ashmore says people are coming to their senses... What does that mean? How many have left and joined him? Who has joined him? Anyone of note?
ReplyDeleteHis hand chosen second in command is a loony toon which speaks to his credibility as a leader.
I don't know, I'm getting sick of all this.
I'm agog and aghast that exntccer ministers would join to ashmore after what you've exposed about his previous ntcc modus operandi.
ReplyDeleteIt seems rather irregular of him exiting his beloved org after the death of the founder but maybe he had preacher religion after all.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteHow many have left and joined him? Who has joined him? Anyone of note?
DNA said:
Getting reliable intel out of that place is hard because Ashmore is just as secretive as the ntcc. That's should raise a red flag in itself, but it's no surprise because Ashmore learned from Davis himself. When you do things above the table and everything is right with God, you don't have to run your church like the CIA where you have to have a top secret clearance to be let in on all the dirty secrets and if you ever betray their confidence you recieve a burn notice which in religious circles is nothing more than being excommunicated from the church. Transparency is a concept that most respectable churches practice because they want their members to know that they aren't ripping people off or running a religious Ponzi scheme.
To answer your question more accurately, We heard the Perkins are with him. They unfriended us and I heard Ashmore ask for 'Brother Perkins to pray" for the sermon. I suppose it could be a different Perkins. I talked to one X-minister on the phone and he felt like anyone who leaves the ntcc should not be questioned and he considered Ashmore to be just another X-member who left the organization and that we should all just receive him as a brother. Many X-members have befriended Ashmore on their Facebook pages which means that they have requested friendship with him and he has trusted them with the content on his secret page. The small paragraph that we got and did this blog post on was leaked to us from one of Ashmore's Face book friends. Being a Face Book friend is not the same as supporting him financially or attending his church, but it is a privilege only reserved for those that call themselves friends. We certainly would not be welcome in his inner circle. I'm not going to name all the people that are friends with Ashmore on Facebook, but we were pretty surprised that many in the X-er community are on his friends list. We hope before they would actually endorse the man or stand up for him that they would do their homework and find out a bit of what he is all about.
An X-Minister named Whittaker sent us a Facebook message telling us that Ashmore was speaking against legalism on his Facebook page and wanted to know what we thought. We explained how many people were hurt by Ashmore to include my own biological Mother, Lisa, The Morenos, Bro. Ken, just to name a few and we were told by Whittaker, "I can tell you have not healed from the ntcc, implying that healing means to continue to accept their abuse and God forbid you should ever say anything bad about the Ashmores. All we wanted to know is what Ashmore said that convinced him that he should trust him just because he left and was saying the same things that we had been saying about the ntcc, and we got a lecture on how we should learn to love and forgive and move on. It's really hard to get a straight answer from people who never really shake off the shackles of cults like the ntcc. I really wasn't trying to argue with anyone when Ashmore first left. I was asking responsible questions, like has he changed? Does he still believe in tithe and accept it? Is he transparent with his finances? Does he feel remorse or has he done anything to reach out to the victims of abuse that suffered from his actions? Just asking these questions was like asking a 95 year old to show his ID before allowing him to purchase a can of chewing tobacco. "I'm not going to argue with you, I've been out for 20 years and I've learned to heal". He contacted us and asked us our opinion, but wouldn't share a word of Ashmore's Diatribe with us, so we were navigating in the dark. What about the victims of abuse who suffered from Ashmore's reign of terror? What about future victims? Some people never heal from anything and they never move on, they just accept the abuse and pitchfork a bunch of cliches to other people and continue on in ignorance.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteI'm agog and aghast that exntccer ministers would join to ashmore after what you've exposed about his previous ntcc modus operandi.
DNA said:
I agree. I think people just need someone to follow and they want someone like Ashmore to approve of them so they can reconcile their years of wasted life in the organization. Nobody relishes the thought of wasting decades of their lives in a cult. It's hard to admit the fact that we all were brain washed dummies that threw away many years of our lives in a cult. I think people deal with it in different ways. Some people follow someone else that they want to be like and in doing so it makes them feel like something good actually came out of their cult experience. Others try to substitute all doctrine with a new life that is accepting of everything and anything other religions choose to teach them. They throw terms around like "you are judging", or "you need to move on", or "you need to heal". All these terms are just their way of saying that they haven't moved on or healed. If you are healed from smoking crack, you don't go hang around crack houses and seek out other crack dealers. If you have moved on from relationships with women that you have met on Match-maker.com, don't go searching the web for your next girl friend. Even the ntcc taught that if you refer to someone, (other than them), as what they are, you are not judging you are just a fruit inspector. It's funny how those types of teachings only apply to judging people outside of the ntcc, but any time you use this technique to make notable objections about their practices or habits, you are no longer a fruit inspector, but now you are a fault finder.
Learn from your mistakes and stop letting cult leaders and former cult ministers teach you how to deal with your own past. Just admit that you've been duped and don't water it down to protect the ones that duped you. The ministers that followed Denis out of the ntcc went from being healed of a contagious disease to being infected with a deadly mutating virus. Learn from your mistakes. Don't repeat history and make the same mistakes over and over. Wake up and become aware. If it quacks, it's a duck, no matter what. If it squeals because you threw a rock at it than you can rest assured that you hit the one you were aiming at. I know, "Let he that is without sin throw the first stone". He was talking to the Pharisees about throwing rocks at a woman who committed adultery. This is the same bunch that Jesus made a scourge of small cords and drove out of the temple. The same bunch that wants everyone else to carry around burdens to heavy to bear while they don't lift a finger to help. The same bunch who search the whole world to make one proselyte and when he is made he becomes twofold more the child of hell than they are. Is this really the type of person that you want to follow after being burned once already?
Anon:
ReplyDeleteHis hand chosen second in command is a loony toon which speaks to his credibility as a leader.
I don't know, I'm getting sick of all this.
Reply:
That is my feelings. The whole thing is a scam. These guys are all fake. If you make your life revolve around these ntcc guys or ex nttc guys you are wasting your life and getting took to the cleaners.
I can see why people pack up and stop blogging. They've escaped, vented, moved on... This is exhausting.
ReplyDeleteNow you're trying to fight on two fronts (even 3 with Denis in the mix). I don't know if I care about NTCC pastors leaving NTCC but I do care about x members finding their way to Ashmore. To put yourself back into the bondage of a senior member of your former cult seems asinine.
He hasn't changed, he's Tailored! Tailored his message to build his own cult. If Ashmore has changed then come out and admit everything that you know, did, didn't do but should have!
Mike
Anonymous said:
ReplyDelete"That is my feelings. The whole thing is a scam. These guys are all fake. If you make your life revolve around these ntcc guys or ex nttc guys you are wasting your life and getting took to the cleaners."
DNA said:
Don't even get me started. It's hard to sit back and watch. It's like seeing a line of thousands of out of shape people trying to climb Mount Everest during a blizzard. A few might get lucky and have someone risk their life to rescue their sorry butts by dragging them off the mountain, but in the end more people die and there are no awards for the effort that is exerted. The ones that are dying are the ones that pass you while you are warning them that what they are doing is most likely going to kill them. They look at you in disgust and wag their heads at you while they trudge on to their destruction.
Mike said:
ReplyDeleteNow you're trying to fight on two fronts (even 3 with Denis in the mix).
DNA said:
The Denis exodus is over and done with, I'm pretty sure. Ashmore is probably winding down, but I imagine that he'll get whatever overflow the ntcc doesn't want. Any time Kekel gets stupid and says something to destroy one of his followers Ashmore will be there like a dog under the table at dinner time licking his chops and salivating for their tithe money. He doesn't have to preach tithe, because all of the folks that followed him already believe in tithe. All he has to do is not preach against it. Most of his followers were at his church in San Diego while it was still part of the ntcc and were already brainwashed to support Ashmore before he went lickedysplit. You are right about Ashmore tailoring his message. He wants people to think that the ntcc is wicked and lost, but he still seems to think he's in an exclusive position and hopes that people will choose the lesser of two evils if that's possible.
I have to say that there are plenty of religious crooks out there besides the ntcc and Ashmore. I can see why Ashmore is appealing to many people. If you look at his public writings on his blog, his YouTube videos and other social media sites, everything seems tailored to those who have a vision for the lost, or want to see miracles in the church. Lots of eyewash for the hungry Christian who has yet to turn on his brain. So goes the church world. You can turn on any broadcast on the radio or TV at any given time during the day and hear what any preacher of any denomination wants you to hear. You don't ever see the stuff they don't want you to see, however, unless someone with a vendetta catches them with their hand in the cookie jar. Many churches are nowhere near as harmful as the ntcc, and I believe that there are a handful of healthy Christian churches that are not in it for the money. If you want to go digging through all the slop buckets out there to find a good biscuit, by all means, dive in. Don't let some cult leader or his mind numbed followers convince you that if you don't randomly attach yourself to one of these groups then you are forsaking the fellowship. The sad thing is that so many of these church groups are convinced that their doctrine is correct and everyone else's is wrong.
D/A,
ReplyDeleteDo you know if Ashmore is trying to say he's now part of the last great movement on earth? I believe Denis is currently doing this but I haven't seen anything of Ashmore on Youtube to put himself on a pedestal like Davis did.
I only ask because this seems to be the mark of the overall cult world.
Mike
Mike said:
ReplyDelete"Do you know if Ashmore is trying to say he's now part of the last great movement on earth?"
DNA said:
No, he doesn't need to make any sensational claims. He's in his sixties and his reputation proceeds him. If you read what he said in this blog post, you can find every point he made on the blogs and FACTnet. It's almost like he is using the blogs as a template for his new doctrine. If you read some of the things he writes and strip away all the references to other great 'men of God' quotes, He seems to have toned things down quite a bit and appears to be teaching fairly sound doctrine, when he doesn't give the mic to Meinecke. The problem is that he is a master manipulator who has been trained by one of the best in the world. There is no telling how he deals with people on an individual basis. While his public venues might seem to present a civilized form of gospel preaching, it doesn't really matter what he says as much as what he does. Anyone, especially Ashmore, can come across eloquently and actually appearing to be concerned about others and have a burden for souls. The difference is clearly defined by James when he admonished folks to be doers of the word and not hearers. James the Less had the true recipe for Christianity, while James the Ash-More only seems to talk a good show. He might be a preaching machine and he has what seems to be endless knowledge of the bible and church history to include quotes from just about every preacher who ever said anything inspirational, but I would say that he has completely lost it. You can't just change your preaching one day and claim that all of the sudden you hold the keys to the kingdom, when you just got finished spiritually destroying hundreds if not thousands of people's lives. Cult leaders are a nasty bunch. Some carry things out to death, killing hundreds of followers. Other basically do the same thing spiritually and their weapon is the bible, and their battleground is the church where they seek protection from behind the pulpit. The ntcc is a cult and Ashmore didn't do anything to change the direction of the organization. He was proficient in using the bible to manipulate and control others, just like Davis, Olson and Kekel. I personally think he had more knowledge of the bible than anyone to include Davis, by a long shot. He was a hearer of the word and a preacher of false doctrine the whole time he was in the organization. He sat in board meetings and rubber stamped every scheme ever issued by Davis. He endorsed the abuse and was a huge part of the coverups plotted by Davis. He abused people while appearing as a minister of light. Then one day he decided to turn on the ntcc and he denounced them as if he were any different from them. If he really would have changed his actions would have had to change also. He remained the same nut in a different shell. Now he speaks out against holiness even though they still appear to live it with the exception of a little facial hair. But who really knows what evil lurks in the heart of Ashmore? The Shadow knows. His shadow follows him around every where he goes and he's not fooling anyone. As long as people blindly pay his bills and provide him with creature comforts on top of the inheritance he received and as long as they pay rent on his nice church building, he'll continue to dazzle the brainwashed masses with his head knowledge of the bible while his actions show the world his true colors.
NTCCers, this could be you, in for 20, 30 yrs and being held responsible for your decision to stay for so long and be a part of this "King Kong" ministry. Get out young before you grow to strong a roots, you may not find welcoming arms on this side of the fence if your willing to be a part of the organization in the face of this knowledge. I couldn't imagine trying to build a ministry in the face of this kind of scrutiny. Being on the fence and leaning toward the wrong side means you could fall in. Every year you stay in will solidify who you really are. If you want to be a puppet on a string for these guys and then after your all washed up and you leave, you may find it hard to deal with the hard questions coming your way. The water is fine on this side if your willing to simply follow Jesus and Jesus alone. You don't need a bunch of over paid weirdos telling you what to do or how to think and whether or not your right with God.
ReplyDeleteYou all have more than just two choices. Kekel and the Ntcc will always tell you that Ashmore went out from 'us' because he was not of 'us', implying that there is no other gospel but theirs. They should get their false doctrine patented. Ashmore, of course, will be more than happy to take all you back sliders from the ntcc in to his fold and he'll even make you feel warm and fuzzy about leaving the ntcc. Ashmore's new sect might not be as regimental as the ntcc, but as we said before, using the Crack Dealer addage, do you really want to change dealers, or do you want to quit smoking crack all together? You know if you go back to Kekel and the ntcc, you'll be smoking crack for sure but slithering over to Ashmore's church might not be the answer either. Ashmore might try to sell you some Christian Crack for you to smoke, but it's really six of one or half a dozen of the other. Pick your poison or go find a place to worship that hasn't been corrupted by the ntcc. Be careful because you'll be searching through a gigantic slop bucket for that one good biscuit. It would probably be good to call around to different churches and get a feel for what they believe. Get yourself a list of questions to ask and try to weed out all the kooks. Run from the Great Whore, but don't run into the arms of the Great Whore's pimp.
ReplyDeleteIsn't it interesting that the material we got for this blog post was secret and had to be leaked to us? We have done 2 blogposts on this one paragraph that Ashmore wrote. It's really good material and it's damning when you take it at face value. Ashmore knows that he can't make this stuff public because it will be used to emphasize his hypocrisy. Ashmore writes a whole lot of stuff. His public stuff is what he wants everyone to hear and think. But Ashmore is a conniver and he writes his criticism of the ntcc in secret forums where he can pick who he thinks can be manipulated and most of his victims willingly accept everything he says. But there are some of us that use our brains. Some people don't want to be duped a second time. If Ashmore is being secretive about the things that he says about the ntcc, and he is also being secretive about many other things that he doesn't want you to know. He learned from the best. All he wants you to know is that he is now preaching a watered down version of ntcc doctrine and that if you join forces with him you will have it a little easier, but beware of wolves in sheep's clothing. Ashmore has a better chance of building a mega church than Kekel because Kekel doesn't have people skills and nobody likes him or wants to follow him. Most of Kekel's followers are the ones that say "Yes sir" "Yes sir" "Three bags full". Ashmore on the other hand has for all practical purposes dumped ntcc style holiness and has a tight nucleus of tithe paying followers. He might very well turn out to be the next Joel Osteen and change his message from tithe or hell to prosperity makes me rich. Whatever he does, it's all about money. He doesn't care about your soul even though he preaches that he does. Don't pay attention to his words, look at his feet and see which way they are pointed so you'll know which way he walks and lives. $$$
ReplyDeleteBryan Hill said:
ReplyDelete"The water is fine on this side if your willing to simply follow Jesus and Jesus alone."
DNA said:
That would be the simplified thing to do, but it seems like most former cult members want it to be difficult. Bryan, I think people want it to be next to impossible so they'll think they are 1 out of a million people that believe. It seems like religion is a big trap and Christianity has so many different faces people can't see the simplicity in Christ. Love God. If you love God you'll love your neighbor. If you love others you wont do things to hurt them. If you live by one simple rule and that is to love God, everything else will fall into place. If you find a church that doesn't practice love, shake the dust off of your feet because if they can't love their brother or sister who they have seen, how can they love God who they have not seen. If you are looking for a church ask the pastor straight up if he preaches tithe or hell. Ask him if he preaches prosperity. Ask him what is different about his church than anyone else's church. Ask him for a copy of his bylaws and if you see anything weird stay away from that church. Don't be so quick to pledge yourself to any man who claims to be of God. Beware of false teachers and false preachers. I'd rather worship God in an empty field than attach myself to a bunch of double standard hypocrites who want to use people for their own purposes. Don't be manipulated by some jerk who wants to get rich. Don't enable those money grubbing phony religious abusers because it only makes it easier for them to continue abusing folks.
Hopefully Little Gesang will protect his kids from Big Gesang. If he doesn't, maybe his wife will leave him to protect her kids like his mom left Big Gesang to protect him.
ReplyDeleteOh Boy! I can just imagine E. F. Gesang trying to get out of this one. What's he gonna do? Smile his cheesiest grin and shake his head and tell people "I'm not a child abuser." Like, we should think, "Oh, it was just one time. That doesn't make me a child abuser."
ReplyDelete?What?
A) We don't know how often this happened.
B) One time is one time too many!
If a guy rapes one woman one time, he is a rapist.
If E. F. Gesang beat his son one time, he is a child abuser.
My gosh... Only 5 guys Graduated from this years class... Wonder if Ashmore is going to start a bible college.
ReplyDeleteI hope Little Gesang was nice to his Mother this Mother's Day!
ReplyDeletePossible names for Ashmore's new Bible College:
ReplyDelete1. SCABS - The Southern California Academy of Brainwashed Suckers
2. AAA - The Ashmore Academy of Abusers
3. SINNERS - The San Diego Institute for Narcissistic NTCC Educated Recycled Sociopaths
Is it that the ashmores are suffering of amnesia because I read nin's blog and she is talking about how many have come to share with them of the abuse they endured by so called religious leaders!!
ReplyDeleteI mean if this doesn't make you gag because they, ashmores, were right in the center of what was going on in the org.
For them to say that they didn't know just takes the cake. If I as a member knew that people were getting blasted from the pulpit in the conferences how much more they who were board members!!! (Sorry for the overuse of exclamation points)
They are in denial, period.
I just read Nin Ashmore's latest blog post and all I can do is shake my head. Where was she for the past 40 years of her husband's ministry when he was a ring leader of most of the abuse that took place in the ntcc? Nin Ashmore writes:
ReplyDeleteAuthoritarianism.
Take care when a leader begins repressing your freedom.
DNA says: Like your husband did in the ntcc?
Exclusiveness.
Watch out for the “we alone are right” and the “us four and no more” attitudes.
DNA says: Ater 40 years of playing follow the leader with RWD, you finally woke up?
Greed.
Moneygrubbing is another telltale sign. Especially if funds wind up in the leader’s pocket and become “nobody’s business.”
Says the former treasurer of the ntcc who said he never knew of any financial misgivings by the ntcc
Sensuality.
Moral purity is a must if the leader claims God’s hand is on his life. A holy life is never optional.
Said the preacher who led the way for 40 years in abuse, and was at the center of the most devastating scandals, but would not answer for his involvement.
Unaccountability.
Leaders who refuse to be accountable to anyone forfeit the right to be trusted and
followed.
Is that why nobody is allowed to comment on either one of your blogs, so that you don't have to answer questions like the ones we ask on our blog? Why should anyone follow you?
Rationalization.
When wrong is justified with a defensive spirit, when inappropriate actions are quickly glossed over, when scriptural truth is twisted to fit a sinful lifestyle, when gray-black facts are whitewashed, stop your support.
Wow, where can I sign up for this cult? Not only can I follow a pastor that is guilty of violating all six blind spots that Nin Ashmore warns us not to overlook, but if we join Ashmore's cult we can follow a preacher that lies about breaking all these rules while he was in the ntcc.
Ashmore's outreach must be to people that have never seen our blog. Nin Ashmore is saying the exact same things that we have been saying and sharing the same pictures we have been sharing for the past 5 years on our blog and the others have been blogging about the same things for over a decade. The only difference is that the Ashmores pretend like they were not there for the past 40 years. I know there are a handful of ministers out there that believe that Ashmore was just like the rest of us. He had a good heart and meant well and was sucked into a deceptive group of cult leaders. How many people really buy that? Ashmore knows the bible as well as anyone that ever graced an ntcc pulpit. He could preach circles around anyone that ever preached in the ntcc. Do you mean to tell me that God gave him all that knowledge but withheld the wisdom to properly represent Christ in a Christ-like manner? Are we supposed to believe that God filled Ashmore's head with an unparalleled knowledge and Understanding so he could take orders from Davis for 40 years and ignore all of the people that want him to come clean? I'm sorry, I just can't buy into that. I have tried so hard to relate to ntcc'rs and cult members. I've acknowledged my own part in the ntcc and most of the time I admit that I was a brain washed dummy just like the rest. This blog has a pretty big audience and a decent amount of participation. If Ashmore was concerned about transparency why didn't he come clean when asked to do so by us? If he is so concerned about the ex-members of the his cult and all he cares about is being a servant to them and not making any profit off of them why doesn't Ashmore address the people on our blog, many of which claim to have been hurt in some way by him in the ntcc? If it quacks like a duck, it is a duck, no matter what. If it howls like a wolf and lurks among the sheep, it's not a sheep no matter what it claims to be.
ReplyDeleteD/A,
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't mind it so much if he'd just left and tried to start his own circus but it's downright devious to act like you were an innocent bystander through all of the horrors over 40 years. If he made a clean break and said "wow was I messed up but now I found Jesus for real and by the way I'm so sorry for all the stuff I did to hurt people" I'd have more respect.
It's the same crap different guy. Looks like you were right.
I think Preacher is one of the top 10 professions in this country. SCAMMERS united.
Mike
I took the time to go and read what Mrs. Ashmore had to say and it does seem kinda naive to come across as being surprised of the negatve experiences being shared. You are right D&A, we have been shaking this tree for decades (I been out 20 yrs) and where were the Ashmores during this time. I remember being troubled daily about how the NTCC was ran. Case in point, I was ordained for the sole purpose of having free access to a chapel on post. Being ordained was a prerequisite for free rent and RW had no problem making it happen. At the ordination in St louis at a conference, RW said these words over all of us who were standing up front: "And Gawd if they fail, let a curse rest upon their lives". All of these red flags were adding up for me back in the 80's and only took a short time for me to realize the organization was more man made then God made. I personally do not have any bad memories of the Ashmores and see them more like mom and pop then hard core NTCCites, but it really is troubling to me for them to act as if nobody has been sounding the trumpet and for them to act as if they hadn't been involved in the very mess they renounce, for over 40 yrs, come on, that is a long time to act as if your pure as the wind driven snow.
ReplyDeleteNin had no idea what was going on? What?! I was only in one church with Barnes and Marshall and I KNEW even though I may not have witnessed abuse, I knew it was going on.
ReplyDeleteOnly Pop Gaylord seemed to be half way decent. Even I thought he was in for the money because he drove a new Lincoln Town car and had one awesome motor home. If he was at the top of the food chain and knew how Barnes and Marshall preached and acted, why did he condone it?
Nin, you knew what was up all those years, I'm no fool. You knew what your husband was up to also.
Ashmore would be interesting to listen to in as a defendant in a legal deposition.
Freebird
Also, doesn't God talk directly to NTCC preachers and tell them everything? Oh yea, that's right Gawd with holds information just like he did with Davis in the Denis fiasco!
ReplyDeleteFreebird
imaskingwhy said:
ReplyDelete" I personally do not have any bad memories of the Ashmores and see them more like mom and pop then hard core NTCCites, but it really is troubling to me for them to act as if nobody has been sounding the trumpet and for them to act as if they hadn't been involved in the very mess they renounce, for over 40 yrs, come on, that is a long time to act as if your pure as the wind driven snow."
DNA said:
We were naive and gullible for so many years and now I have a really hard time believing in people that expect you to do so without any proof that they have changed. I felt the same way you did about the Ashmores. When I was in I had more respect for them than I did for anyone with the exception possibly of Mom and Pop, because I knew them better. I thought they were decent people at the same time we were all being used. When we started blogging I actually blogged about Ashmore suggesting that he should leave and stand up for the many people who were hurt by the ntcc. I wanted one Board member to leave, but by the time Ashmore left we started finding out from many former members that Ashmore was a big part of the problem. Much of the negative things that the Ashmores blog about against the ntcc are carbon copies of the exact things we have been saying. It's like they plagiarized a large portion of our blog changing just a few words here and there. Even some of the pictures they have chosen are identical or close to identical to ours. I would normally think this is great but I can't just accept the word of someone who has been complained about my many as a major source of abuse. That is why we gave him a chance to give his side of things and I was all ears and would have loved to hear what he had to say. He never addressed a single thing that we asked him to address. He is just as secretive if not more secretive as the ntcc. I was and still am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt just because he left, but by him not addressing the people he hurt it's like it's beneath him to admit failure. If he were to come out like Mike said and say that he made some mistakes or major errors in judgement and ask the people he hurt for forgiveness I would probably wish him luck and quit wasting time blogging about him. But he has chosen to remain silent and unaccountable, and that means to me that he hasn't changed. Freebird put it very well also by quoting Jesus, saying that he should leave his gift at the altar and seek forgiveness from the offended brother. He didn't do anything to make things right and that is why I feel like he is a big let down. I believe in mercy and second and third chances even 70th chances. But when people don't acknowledge any wrong doing and don't even bother to address the ones they did wrong it makes me think that they haven't changed. I'm done falling for scams and believing in people just because they expect you to. If someone says, trust me, I don't. If someone says believe me, I don't. Give me a reason to trust or believe in you, because those are qualities that have to be earned from now on. We tried it your way and failed. We gave our best years of our lives trusting and believing in people. Don't expect us to make the same mistake twice.
I'm so sick of religious leaders projecting their lack of faith on every one else. Religion is used to keep people from having a relationship with God. When a minister tells you how to live and tries to incorporate his opinions into church doctrine it's because he wants to fill your life with his religion. He doesn't want you to believe and trust in God. He doesn't want you to have a relationship with God where you commune with God to find out what He wants for your life today. If that preacher can convince you to doubt or give you a reason to rely on his religion, then he has a job and a reason to collect your money. Jesus died for each of us individually and that gives us access to Him. People like Davis never wanted us to know that or to realize that we all are on the same holy ground and that we all have access to the throne of God. Davis wanted to ride shotgun while we all looked at life from the backseat windows. He pretended to have what we all wanted and could have had but they created a reliance in our lives on a pastor. Pastor can I do this or that? They taught us that their religion was the only way to make it to heaven and because of this teaching we had no chance at knowing what God wanted us to do. *If we would have jumped in the front seat with God and asked God what he wanted for our lives at any given time of any given day, we would have learned that we could have a friendship with God rather than a man made religion that exists only to convince people that they can't have that type of relationship with God. We were sitting in the backseat looking out the windows and asking if we could stop at McDonalds for a Big Mac when God wanted to take us to Red Lobster for a feast. We could have been in the front seat talking to God about those great cheese biscuits, but we didn't know that we had that privilege because we were relegated to the back seat. That's what these religious hypocrites do. They make you think that you need them and that you can't make it to heaven without them. Before you know it they are filling your minds with all kinds of manipulative rules and false doctrines.
ReplyDelete*Much of this comment was inspired by an article I read on:
Freebelievers.com click here
Freebird said:
ReplyDelete"Nin, you knew what was up all those years, I'm no fool. You knew what your husband was up to also.
Ashmore would be interesting to listen to in as a defendant in a legal deposition."
DNA said:
I agree totally and you make a very good point. I also would love to see Ashmore or Kekel have to testify in a court of Law. They would not be allowed to use their con artist techniques in the court house and for the first time in their lives they would be forced to answer the questions they were asked honestly. I would love to see a judge tell someone like Ashmore that he is being held in contempt of court for losing his temper and blowing his top in court. These cult leaders would never get away with talking down to people like they do in their cult meetings. Ashmore and Kekel would probably have to spend a few nights in jail just for running their mouths too much.
D/A,
ReplyDeleteYou hit the nail on the head. What does it take to live as a Christian?
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. There is no greater commandments than these.
All of Christ's teachings has those 2 commands at its very core. If you do those you really don't need to read the Bible. I say this because if you live your life with love at its core then you live as a Christian. Once you understand the principles of love you will read the Bible in a whole new light. Like D/A said, Christianity is that simple.
Freebird
Freebird said...
ReplyDeleteNin had no idea what was going on? What?! I was only in one church with Barnes and Marshall and I KNEW even though I may not have witnessed abuse, I knew it was going on.
Bryan Hill said:
I had a ex biker church member with no religious background in my church who after being saved 1 year pulled me asided and started the coversation off like this: "Am I the only one seeing this, you are here working full time and trying to buid a church with their name on it and you can't even get a little help. I'm no intellectual but it seems to me something fishy is going on".
This was said as a result of me struggling to find money to go to my last conference right before i resigned. And I have met many more who realized the abuse and awkwardness of relations between the leadership and followers of this organization.
Mike said:
ReplyDelete"I wouldn't mind it so much if he'd just left and tried to start his own circus but it's downright devious to act like you were an innocent bystander through all of the horrors over 40 years. If he made a clean break and said "wow was I messed up but now I found Jesus for real and by the way I'm so sorry for all the stuff I did to hurt people" I'd have more respect."
DNA said:
Most former ntcc ministers that I have known have come on the blogs at one time or another and said they were sorry in their part for hurting others in the ntcc style "King Kong" ministry, in so many words. It's no mystery. The worst part of it all is not what he did, or that he left, but rather that he pretends like he was never part of the problem and so does Nin. The ntcc wives were huge enablers for their husbands. Ntcc pastors were so involved in each church member's personal lives so they could direct that church member to a form of religion that kept them blinded to the fact that they didn't even need that pastor or that they were much better without someone interfering with their walk with God. Ashmore was masterful at making people think that their Salvation could not stand alone without his great preaching and his wife supported his false doctrine with love bombing and pretending to care about people. If they really cared about people they wouldn't teach dependence on them or an organization. Throw away all your common sense and let's fit you into your knew required holiness garb and teach you to pray in fear for a list of things that have nothing to do with your own intimacy with God, and get you to read your bibles so you will have questions to ask your pastor who will in turn teach you to do things his way and God who did all the work in saving your soul will be quickly forgotten and rejected in place of churchianity and you will never rise above the routine you were taught to keep you in the place they want you to remain in.
It's a proven system used by hucksters and religious con artists everywhere. Davis never wanted anyone to be successful. It was okay if they brought in lots of money or reached a lot of people, but I noticed a pattern in conferences. When someone like Ashmore would preach and get a lot of people excited, Davis would do something to discontinue the aura of success and so that what seemed to be Joy that could become contagious would be extinguished from people's lives. From then on he rarely preached in conferences and if he did, it wasn't like you heard him preach on tapes or in revival services when Davis was absent. Ashmore was placed under the same thumb screws that we all were and he became an abusive jerk just like Davis. Anytime someone became successful and started doing really good Davis would keep them in check by jacking them up or changing their surroundings, ie, like sending them to some dead church where they had to start from scratch. Ashmore became a product of Davis and he became the source of abuse himself, while also being a silent witness to many other forms of abuse that he did nothing to stop. The very fact that he doesn't admit this now makes him a hypocrite and leads me to believe he can't be trusted even though he agrees with what we have been blogging about for years. He agrees with his mouth and his written words, but there has been no change or attempt to reconcile with the victims that have suffered because of him. I'm not just talking about the ones that have leveled serious allegations of Sexual abuse and placed him in the middle of just about every huge scandal the ntcc was involved in. He can't even come clean about what he seen and witnessed as treasurer and secretary of the borg. I'm not buying it.
Freebird said:
ReplyDelete"All of Christ's teachings has those 2 commands at its very core. If you do those you really don't need to read the Bible. I say this because if you live your life with love at its core then you live as a Christian. Once you understand the principles of love you will read the Bible in a whole new light. Like D/A said, Christianity is that simple."
DNA said:
They never wanted real Christians, they wanted to create replicas of themselves. With Real Christians, it's not about money. They can't use people who aren't motivated by money and numbers and that is why they steer people away from love and true Christianity and towards rules. Pray and read your bible, meant live in fear and allow someone else to explain the bible to you. Ask questions. Prayer meant to make a list and ask God for things that you would never get because your relationship with him was being interfered with by some middle man who had your tithe in his best interest. They were more concerned about creating fear in your heart so that when you prayed it was almost like you were praying for salvation each time. God forgive me for this or that, make me pure and whole. Help this one or that one, let's see how we can manipulate God to do for us rather than praying. We don't have to live like this. Prayer is a two way communication, not just a bunch of Oh God touch hearts and souls and move in church tonight. God do this for me or do that for me. How about, God, what do you want us to do today? I'm already walking with you and saved. I don't have to approach you in fear with a list of sorrows and travail in agony. If we had to do all that than what purpose does prayer really serve? How about, God I know you love me, I know you care about me, how can we plan out our day together, and what can we do together as friends? You are already with me, You are sovereign and you know about all my troubles and cares. Why worry about a bunch of junk you have no control over? Give it to God and forget about it. In the ntcc we used to walk around in circles praying for the same things over and over again. How is God going to bless and move in tonight's service when you have to repeat that prayer 50 times? If you ask for the same thing over and over you are just repeating to God what you've already asked from him for. Did he hear you the first 49 times? Oh, Gawd. Save souls. Why? So some abusive jerk can manipulate them for money and control their lives? No wonder the ntcc never grows. It's always been a stagnant and spiritually dead organization. They waste hour after hour of precious time that we have to make a better life for ourselves in which God can flourish and we can be free of all the junk that would otherwise clutter our lives with. Soul winning, prayer meetings, church services and bible studies to place the masses in bondage under a self serving system that benefits the few arrogant rule manufacturers for the sole purpose of controlling us and our bank accounts so they can be full time con artists and religious hypocrites, while we wonder, where is God?
Hey, do they even have those "prayer meetings" anymore? The ones where everyone either shuffles around like the undead, moaning and "groaning in the Spirit" or lies on the floor screaming and begging God to do this or that, crying out and speaking in tongues, beating on the altar? We used to do that in Tillicum, and later at Forest Ave, with the lights off. If any "normal" person were to walk in on that, there would be no question they'd stumbled into a cult function. Later in Washington, they had them for awhile, but they were pale facsimiles of the red-hot sessions I remembered from St. Louis. Mostly just bored looking people daydreaming and wishing they were someplace else. But man, back in the day, it was intense!
ReplyDeleteI'd be careful falling for the idea of not needing to read the bible... Going to church... Things that Christians traditionally do.
ReplyDeleteAlmost sounds like you're a hippie. Just give peace a chance man. Make love not war... Totally excellent dude.
We have added Podcast feature to our blog. You can select the Podcast page or the Podcast Banner just above the current blog post. Our first Podcast is a test run and basically is a brief overview of what the ntcc is all about. It's a little boring but we want it to be in the archives so folks that don't know what the ntcc is all about can listen in. There is a comment feature but it's not moderated so please don't abuse it or we'll have to get rid of that feature all together. We do plan to have some more entertaining topics and hope to incorporate ntcc style skits and workshops into our podcasts. Stay tuned for more info. Click here for Podcast
ReplyDeleteSo far it works great on desktop computers but we are experiencing problems in the mobile format. Please be patient as it might take a little time to work through those problems.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteI'd be careful falling for the idea of not needing to read the bible... Going to church... Things that Christians traditionally do.
DNA said:
I knew someone would go there, and I understand what you are saying. The same could be said about praying. Reading and praying and going to church were mandatory requirements in the ntcc. One might say, if they know God and they have a relationship where they include God in their thoughts and they know what The bible says because they have read it many times, and they don't want to go to church just to go to church and join a bunch of false teaching ministers does that make them any less of a christian than 98% of the church goers that act all spiritual but don't know or practice love or anything in the bible. You can read 10 chapters a day and pray for several hours a day and spend all your spare time in church and still be an abusive jerk. The majority of ntcc ministers are like that. I personally don't think that reading, praying or church hopping really makes a person more spiritual or makes them any closer to God. We have been taught that you can't survive without a steady diet of all three of those ingredients, and I know that most religious people will agree, but God tells us to be doers of the word and not hearers only. I personally pray and read. I really don't think that praying and reading makes me more spiritual than the next guy. I don't attend church right now because I'm not ready to start the process of trusting someone I don't know with my spiritual life. Why do people find it necessary to attend a church service with a group of people that they don't know and force themselves to listen do the same thing that never helped us in the ntcc? Is it just because the ntcc used Heb. 10:25 "Forsake not the assembling of ourselves together" as a weapon of fear to keep us from leaving their church? What does that scripture even mean? If I could find a group of people that are not following a swindling con artist and are being motivated by love instead of greed, I might consider worshiping with them. Do I have to go out and hop from church to church and absorb a whole bunch of garbage just so I can fulfil a requirement of a scripture that is misinterpreted? If God ever wants me to attend church with a group of believers I'm sure he's capable of directing me to the right place. Or maybe someone will come my way and if I feel like that person has an intimate walk with God and I want to join a group I'll do it, but I'm not going to try to force a square peg into a round hole anymore just because the church world thinks its right. What would you suggest I do? I'm curious. Just about every church out there has it's own way of getting to heaven and it disagrees with every other church about how to get there. If you want God, go to God himself. If you want a group of people to help you feel like you are part of something go church hopping until you find the right bunch.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteI'd be careful falling for the idea of not needing to read the bible... Going to church... Things that Christians traditionally do.
DNA said:
I'm not saying you are wrong about that either. If you are in a healthy church and lead a spiritual life that is great. Each person needs to do what they feel is right with God. I think too many people are more worried about the next guy or girl to give their own relationship the attention it needs. I do appreciate your comment and am not disagreeing with you. Jesus healed a lot of people and he told them not to follow him physically, but to go out and tell the world the great things that he had done. He sent the disciples out by twos to perform the same type of ministry he was doing and I'm sure they missed a few church services. I'm not sure Jesus went to very many church services, but when he was around they were worshiping. What makes a church, 2 or 3 gathered in the name of Jesus? The ntcc doesn't ever want people to grow up and become responsible for their own salvation but they want them to continually support the ntcc and follow their pastors and trust them and believe in them.
I also thought someone would misinterpret what I meant about not reading the Bible.
ReplyDeleteWhat I intended was to get the point across that if one lives their life in Agape Love (the highest level of love, the kind of love God has for us) you naturally live the life of a Christian.
If Jesus lived today he would be called a "Hippe Liberal". Think about it. If you can't see that then you need to ask God what he meant by "love thy neighbor as thyself" and ask him how to live in that love. Also, it requires one to love themselves first like God loves them before they can love others with the same love God has for them.
When I got out I only read and lived the words of Christ. Why? Because the rest of the Bible was the words of earthly men and not the words Christ had spoken himself. The rest of the New Testament is men giving their interpretation of what they felt Christ meant. I already had plenty of that in NTCC! After you understand Agape Love and incorporate it into your life then you read the Bible in a whole different light.
Agape Love is not a blind love. It is a love that also holds wrongdoers accountable just like Christ did with the money changers at the temple. It is a love that is slow to anger and quick to ask for forgiveness. Agape love is a love where we put ourselves in another person's shoes, in other words, empathy. It's a love that leads one to naturally find how we can help those in need. Agape love doesn't mean that we become a doormat. Agape Love means that our motivations are pure and not self centered.
Agape Love is a foreign concept to most in NTCC. That is because we never saw it in NTCC and I never heard about it ever being preached about in NTCC. How could it be? Our pastors were taught only a man's warped interpretation of the Bible. If a pastor understood Agape Love they quickly got out because they could not tolerate the abuses they saw committed in the name of Christ.
I had a wise pastor outside of NTCC that once said, "You will never argue anyone into heaven, you can only love them into heaven". That is to say, if we live our lives in the Agape Love of Christ then other folks will naturally want to know and want to have what you have and seek it for themselves.
And yeah, Christ is awesome dude, man!!!
Freebird
February 5, 1997
ReplyDeleteLetter of Dispatch
Letter of Support
Re: G.T. Shunk
508-1 Sang Yon Dong
P.O. Box 19
Tongduchun
Republic Of Korea
To Whom concerned,
This is to certify that Rev. G.T. Shunk is an ordained minister in good standing with the New Testament Christian Churches of America, Inc. This is to further certify that Rev. G.T. Shunk has been granted an appointment to Korea that he may serve as a Pastor and spiritual director of U.S. servicemen. His role as a servicemen’s director consists of providing a place of spiritual fellowship and relaxation, etc. for US servicemen. Also, New Testament Christian Churches of America, Inc. will be responsible for the financial support of Rev. and Mrs. G.T. Shunk during their stay in Korea to include all expenses that relate to their meals and lodging.
Thanking you for your help and cooperation in this matter.
Sincerely,
//Signed//
J.R. Ashmore (Secretary)
Here’s the link to the original.
COMMENTS: I did not become an ordained minister until 2006 (the Cult says I was ordained by 1997...Lie # 1). We never receive the promised financial support (yes, we asked...Lie # 2).
Taken from a blog post on Greg and Deb Shunk's blog entitled White Lies. This is disturbing on many levels because Ashmore just told another former minister that he was never privy to any of the financial misgivings of the ntcc. So we are supposed to believe that Ashmore was kept in the dark about everything. Now that the Miracle worker has left the ntcc he has gained the trust of many of his old friends while shunning all the people he has hurt. God will use him to pray for and heal a person but God can't speak to him about coming clean and admitting his part in many of the ntcc financial misgivings that he signed off on. Well if His public display of miracle healing prayer actually heals someone as opposed to the family members private prayers, than that's a good thing. Does anyone learn from history? I guess if it quacks, it's not a duck any more, it's a miracle working man of Gawd, who feels no obligation to explain why he quacks out lies to all the ones he's hurt. The actual Miracle has yet to be confirmed but the glory is already going to Ashmore. Don't get me wrong, I hope the person does get healed, and that the confirmation that everyone is claiming does come through. To me, if it does it's not because of Ashmore's prayer, but all the loved ones who know the sick person whose prayers are every bit more important than the prayers of a man that has left many others hurt and broken. If it were a member in my family, I'd be afraid to ask a former ntcc board member to pray for them, and then announce that it was his prayer above everyone else's that healed the person before the person actually got healed. To me it would be like asking Judas to pray for healing after his betrayal. I hope I'm wrong, I really do.
God told Ashmore to pray for this person's healing over the phone. Another account really makes a stretch by saying God used A wonderful good brother in Christ Pastor James Ashmore anointed by God to pray. I want to believe this, I really do, but common sense and 13 years of being bamboozled by a bunch of professional religious hucksters and con artists prevent me from doing so. So God tells Ashmore things and God uses Ashmore for spectacular miracles, but God doesn't tell Ashmore to make things right with the people who have gone public and given testimony to how they have been hurt? I wonder if Ashmore feels any remorse about his part in the Moreno tragedy. On Chief's blog this account was given and MDR confirmed that "The minister that replaced Mr. Kinson was Mr. [James Ross] Ashmore, and Mr. [James Ross] Ashmore promptly proceeded to blacklist and ostracize Roland Moreno. Never again was Roland Moreno treated justly by the NTCC leadership." See link to the full story
ReplyDeleteI can't imagine being put in that position. Moreno does what he thinks is the right thing and turns in Kinson who retrieved his wallet from a whore house. He then gets blacklisted by Ashmore who is one of the most well respected preachers in the organization, while Phil Kinson gets a permanent promotion to co-pastor the biggest church in the organization. Larry Duran told me that he asked his Dad, (Ashmore), and Ashmore denied knowing anything about Moreno. Davis was confronted about this by MDR and "R.W. Davis pointed his finger in Pastor Reed's face and essentially scolded Pastor Reed for involving himself in another man's adulterous affairs." MDR said that The NTCC leadership to include R.W. Davis systematically targeted Roland Moreno and his wife from that point forward and the Reeds were never treated the same either. Now the Morenos are dead and Ashmore denies any knowledge of his part in it. Ashmore has never attempted to make things right with Bro. Ken McPhearson whose life was made a living hell Ashmore. Ashmore was also used to run off Lisa after she was made pregnant by Johnny Jordan at 15 years old. He's never apologized for that or for spanking her inappropriately when she was a young child according to Lisa's testimony. He's never done anything to make things right with Julie who testified that Ashmore raped her. None of these witnesses has ever been proven to be a liar, while Ashmore lied blatantly on a document signed by him and notarized to the Korean government. So are we supposed to turn off our brains and believe all of the sudden that all these people were lying and now that all of the sudden Ashmore who has exhibited no responsibility for any of his actions is now a changed man of God, operating a ministry of miracles where God tells him to pray for someone over the phone and he is now all of the sudden calling down the glory of God to heal over the phone? The Morenos Lied? Lisa Lied? Ken Lied? Julie Lied? MDR Lied? We know Greg Shunk didn't lie because he posted a copy of a letter chocked full of lies signed by Ashmore. I'm not buying any of it. Sorry, I know some folks are going to be extremely offended by this, but how can we allow ourselves to be that gullible?
Well that just kicked things up a notch. I was in a serious meeting with Ashmore in it many years ago and it is amazing how nobody wants to support you when you are in the spot light. It's not what he said, it's what he didn't say while I was being grilled by RW.
ReplyDeleteOh I forgot, My own mother must have also lied about how abusive Ashmore was when she drove down from the far side of Denver to Colorado Springs on a work night to hear him preach after I begged her to go see this great orator. He viciously plowed her fields, not even knowing who she was and she told me that he was cold as ice. He never bothered to pray for my Mom's cancer over the phone, niether did Davis, but the Tiemans so eagerly pointed out on the night of my mom's death that I shouldn't pretend that she made it to heaven, because she refused to live by the ntcc's standards of holiness. My mom was actually more saved than the whole lot of us, including Ashmore and and the Tiemans. God delivered her from a very dark past. I know this to be a fact. She actually did adhere to some of the ntcc holiness but she already knew God saved her and the evidence was in her life, not a bunch of man made rules that people like Ashmore tried to enforce. She didn't feel the need to put on the outward show that the ntcc required. She loved God and share God's love with others. Maybe some people are ready to die and don't need a showman to pray them out of heaven for a few more years on this earth. My mom died when she was 49, and could have lived twice that long but she is probably very thankful right now that she wasn't prayed out of heaven. I am honored to have been her son for I witnessed more Christianity in her life than I did in 13 years of playing church with the ntcc, and much of my faith I have because of how I witnessed her live while every single thing around her was falling apart. My older brother had drank and drugged himself into a mental breakdown where he had to be strapped to a table and spit at everyone that came near him, in between shock treatments. My younger brother was only 12 and loved her dearly but was mentally abused by his Father, (my step father), who also was extremely verbally abusive towards her and cheating on her. I was doubting her salvation because I was severely brainwashed and how did she respond in the midst of all this? She loved us all until the day she died. There was nothing that she wouldn't do for us or anyone. She also must have been lying about Ashmore. Unfortunately I think she was telling the truth.
ReplyDeleteDaniel Boone said...
ReplyDeleteWell that just kicked things up a notch. I was in a serious meeting with Ashmore in it many years ago and it is amazing how nobody wants to support you when you are in the spot light. It's not what he said, it's what he didn't say while I was being grilled by RW.
DNA said:
There you have it, another person burned by Ashmore. He must be lying also. I'm sure there are many who also suffer in silence and have never voiced Ashmore's betrayal.
Yes, your mother knew exactly who Christ was. Tiemanns saying your mom was destined to hell is why no person should set foot in any NTCC church or break off of NTCC. That was blatant spiritual abuse!
ReplyDeleteMay I ask what was the petty thing she did or did not do that prompted Ashmore to plow her fields? Did she dare open her Bible and read along with Ashmore when he read? Could it be her dress, her make up, not standing or praying when the all mighty man of Gawd required it to be so? Was she late and Ashmore already was behind the pulpit?
He damned his own self. What a piece of work.
Freebird
Freebird said:
ReplyDelete"May I ask what was the petty thing she did or did not do that prompted Ashmore to plow her fields?"
DNA said:
Unfortunately when she came to me for consolation and shared that Ashmore was yelling directly at her, (for what, I'm not sure), I wouldn't listen and I took Ashmore's side even though I wasn't there and didn't have a clue. I regret that I allowed any of these hypocrites to get in my head or to treat my Mother the way they treated her. I know and I knew exactly what happened. It was one of those church services where the so called man of God says that God changed their message at the last moment. I know everyone that's ever been to an ntcc service can relate to what I'm about to say. It was one of those dark services where everyone wants to crawl to the altar because they can't see through the phony false prophets judgmental message of doom and they are grieved inside because they know that the preacher is condemning a person to spiritual execution. When you bring someone new to church and you are excited but for some reason unknown to anyone, the preacher flips out and starts getting specific and directing his message to a person and claiming that it is God that wants to torment the poor soul. I've seen it so many times and it makes me sick to my stomach. Fortunately even though my Mother was wounded, she had enough God to know that God loved her and that Ashmore was a money grubbing hypocrite that wanted to replace her reality with religion. I'm sure my Mom did or said something unknowingly that most ntcc'rs don't dare say because they live in fear of people like Ashmore. Whatever triggered his wrath, I could tell that my Mom got a full dose of Ashmore hate preaching and that the Fellowship afterward was cold and calculated. She said that Ashmore was the coldest man she ever met and that he was cold as ice. Why would a true Christian be described that way? My mom had no interest in hurting any of the ntcc members that were in that church. The reason my mom went was because she was proud of me for being a Christian and I kept nagging her to go. I wish I would have apologized to her. We never talked about it again, but looking back, I know exactly what she experienced and what made her feel that way, because I had seen it too many times. Rudy would preach these extremely pointed messages to specific people and it would only serve to torment an unsuspecting individual and place everyone else in fear of being like the person that he tore down, meanwhile he was using the servicemen's home for to fulfil his homosexual lust while using scripture to justify it. It seems like the harder they preached the more evil they were. They would call down fire upon people that looked at them wrong or said something to make them feel uncomfortable. I'm glad my Mom had a loving and forgiving heart. This is why I'm not so quick to jump aboard the Ashmore Express and join in on the Chorus of praises that are being sung by all his old X-er friends. I learned a lot from my Mom. I learned that Christianity isn't based on how loud a person preaches or how many people a preacher can bring to a frenzy of Amens and Hallelujahs. The life we live speaks much louder than any sermon preached. The love and compassion we show to others is tangible and undeniable while the preachers of fire, brimstone and judgment come and go. Jesus' love for others and actions gave life and meaning to His words.
I want to say that I don't claim to have the exact recipe for Salvation. If it works for you, do it. I believe that Christianity is based on love for God and for others. I think that in fulfilling these two commandments you will also fulfill the rest. I believe that we are saved by Grace and that Jesus did all the suffering on the Cross for us. I don't think that Christianity is supposed to be lived in fear and we don't have to walk on eggshells all of our lives. My problem with most of the religious world is that they want to impose their own will and ideas on others. This frustrates the simplicity of Christ. It's more important to many professional career ministers to tear people down and cause them to believe that they need what that preacher has. It's never enough to take someone at their word, and believe they are a Christian, they have to put the lives of others under a microscope and find fault with them. They look for weaknesses so they can exploit people. If you are using the ministry to support your comfortable and excessive life style, and you make a living off of telling others your opinions and false doctrines, you are nothing more than a snake oil salesman that chose to live in luxury while others that give you that luxury have to sacrifice their time and money and often their family for your comfort. Jesus never spent his time condemning people, unless it was their practice to condemn others, like the religious hypocrites that did the same thing that the ntcc and Ashmore are now doing. Everyone else he treated with love and healing and had compassion toward them. If you love God and attend a Baptist or Catholic church why should I get all bent out of shape and try to change your religion? That's what the ntcc did, and that's what Ashmore did. He preached against the Catholics because of the way they treated him while he was a kid in parochial school. It's funny how he carried the Catholic abuse of spanking children over to the ntcc. He used to preach about how Mother Superior carried a heavy stick. Meanwhile back at the ntcc at Forest Ave. Ashmore had to call Rodrigues to help him hold down his son so he could spank him in public. Ashmore also spanked Lisa and who knows how many other young girls and boys. What's disturbing about these kinds of spankings is that Ashmore reportedly felt the need to make it a sexual thing by pulling down her underwear. Does anyone find that disturbing that a grown man would discipline someone else's young child in that matter? Lisa painfully remembered him touching her inappropriately before spanking her. It's always people like that who seem to want to place others in hell with their preaching. It's not enough for someone to love God and go to another church but these professional spiritual assassins feel the need to tear down their religion and make them feel lost so they can introduce them into their own toxic formula of cult doctrine and abuse.
ReplyDeleteWe have just produced our 2nd installment of DNA X-er Podcast. Today's topic is Soul Winning NTCC Style - "A Skit or Workshop for the 'Honest' Soul Winner".
ReplyDeletePodcast 2
At 11:40 cst I can't access your podcast2 by hitting play. It keeps telling me I win a 549 dollar electronic device. Any idea on how I can get around without downloading the podcast? It won't let me go to the podcast after I win. It wants my life history.
ReplyDeleteWe are sorry if you are having problems accessing our Podcast. We think all the problems are related to mobile phones bringing up spam when you try to listen to the link. To use a podcast you have to use a storage host to upload your MP3 files. Our host is Tindeck and it's a free service. Sometimes free means that there are bugs that you have to work out and this is a major one. I'm working on a second program for cell phones that will allow us to put a cell phone link on our blog so that mobile users don't run into this intrusive problem. I hope by the end of the day today to have a solution to our problem. If anyone has any experience with podcasts and knows something I don't know, we are all ears and would like to hear from you. Please have patience with us. If you have a desktop, the tindeck link works really good. The quality is great and it takes you right into the audio. We are on it and hope to have it going soon. We have three ways to access the podcasts from your desktop computer. Our blog has ten tabs running across the top, just under the title of our blog. The second one says podcasts. If you click into it you will find an archive of podcasts which only consists of our first two. The newest one will always be on top. There also is a small banner right above our blogpost which will take you directly to our Tindeck channel but again, this can only be accessed by desktop at this present time. We also put a link in the comment section above that will take you directly to the audio.
ReplyDeleteWe haven't heard any news about the board member Jones leaving. Last time it turned out to be rumors. Sometimes rumors turn out to be true and other times they don't. If you have any info other than a question about rumors to share, you are welcome to share what you know or thought you heard on the blog. With the Ashmores, the rumors were true but the last time rumors about Jones surfaced they turned out to be just rumors.
ReplyDeleteI think about how the Pharisees were always around to interfere with everything wonderful that Jesus did. They didn't care about the people whose lives were being changed or about the healings that took place. They were only concerned about how it effected their religion and how that people chose to follow Jesus instead of following them. They seldom sought to learn anything useful, but they constantly asked fault finding questions and accused Him of unfounded and unsubstantiated violations of their traditions and rules. Any time a person wants you to focus on their own doctrine to the point that it interferes with your relationship with God, don't waste you time with them.
ReplyDeletePeople will often say that we are bitter because we have a passion to expose the people who filled our lives with oppression. Bitter is a word that people throw out in hopes that it will keep people silenced and going along with the flow of where they feel religion should take people. Labels like bitter or angry Christians serve no purpose but to silence others from helping people deal with things that they, themselves, have refused to deal with. What is really cool about God is that we don't have to join a church, becuase we are the church. It's like going on a deep sea dive with God. In the ntcc we were convinced that this deep sea diving trip was being led by men so we found ourselves swimming through Sewage water wishing we could be swimming in clear blue waters and enjoying the creatures and beauty of God's creation, but instead of diving with God we went with his self proclaimed representative dive tour leaders who kept directing us deeper and deeper into the foulness and stench of religion. When we come out of that mess it took time to process the whole experience and get to a place where we could make a clean break. If a diver surfaces too fast he/she will get the bends because their body tried to escape from the depths and pressure of all that water too fast. You need time to decompress. Everything in the ntcc was pressure, pressure, pressure just like the deep sea dive. God himself has so much grace and mercy, unlike the borg where we were constantly walking on eggshells trying to please some sociopath trying to change the rules on us. Now that we are out of the ntcc there are still Pharisees like Ashmore that want to be our guide back into the sewage that we just came out of. God want's us to go with him and share in the sights with Him, not to be diverted by some religious huckster that claims to represent him. I'm not saying that we don't need church but if all church groups seem to be interested in is jacking your relationship with God so they can replace it with a bunch of religious rules and legalistic doctrine, I'll take my chance with forsaking the assembly with that bunch.
I remember when Tracy blogged about being in the Philippines and she was helping out at an orphanage and her pastor at the time was Ashmore and he jacked her up because she dared to help out orphaned children, saying something like, "We don't do that here". Ashmore didn't have any problem excepting his diamond pinky ring that was bought for him by Dorsie. Does anyone find that to be kind of weird? You can spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars on a diamond pinky ring for a board member who gladly receives it and wears it, but if you want to do something for God to help orphaned children, you are rebuked. It was a fad back then for successful ntcc board members to wear diamond pinky rings and drive ugly Cadillacs. Is there something wrong with this picture? That was decades ago but Ashmore still seems to want to live a life that is supplemented by wealth and riches. Helen spoke out on her blog about other preachers not being financially transparent. There are many people on our blog that have asked for answers and want to know what Ashmore knows. They would like him to come clean and many feel that if he is not willing to address the answers that we asked him to address in our letter which was delivered to him by a long time ntcc X-minister that he is not being transparent at all with many that he has offended.
ReplyDeleteAshmore was an abusive money grubbing hypocrite while he was in the ntcc. I'm wondering when he got saved. Did he have some kind of an experience when he left the ntcc that changed him from what he was in the ntcc to what he is now? Paul used to be a lot like Ashmore before He became a Christian. He admitted to his offenses specifically and named them for everyone to know. He says that he persecuted Christians and even consented to Stephens death. He was carrying letters to damascus to go house to house and find people that believed in Jesus so that they could be put in prison when a light shone from heaven and Paul was confronted by Jesus. He goes on to tell of the glorious life changing experience that he had. Ashmore was given orders by Davis to persecute people like Moreno who exposed Kinson for going to a whorehouse and Lisa Norton for her knowledge of what He'd done to her older sister Pam and tried to do to her older sister Brenda and to cover up the fact that Johnny Jordan who was his office worker got Lisa pregnant. Ashmore was dispatched by Davis to call out Lisa in St. Louis. Davis wanted everyone in the church to believe that Lisa and her best friend Lori were whores and sluts so that Davis could quietly move Pam and Johnny to Washington so he got his spiritual assassin Ashmore to do his dirty work for him. What a mess to have to cover up something like that. I often wonder if Johnny Jordan caught Davis or found out about it and raped his wife's sister to get back at Davis in some sick way. Who knows but Davis moved them to Washington and sent Ashmore to cover up what really happened by calling Lisa and Lori whores and sluts. This was shared by Lisa and Lori in a phone conversation with me and Ange. Of course all the doubters will say that we are just bitter and angry Christians. We are collaborators with people that hate the Ashmores for no reason at all. Lisa and Lori called Ange and I and told us what they went through and they were even willing and attempted to get their story heard by Dr. Phil, but I guess too much time had passed and it was not fresh enough to put on TV.
ReplyDeleteI haven't heard of any soul saving experience that took place in Ashmore's life, but Paul told everyone as part of his personal testimony what happened to him. He got saved. He stopped persecuting Christians and became a Christian. Did Ashmore ever become a Christian or are we just supposed to assume that he always has been one? Many of the victims of ntcc abuse have spent hours praying and asking God why this had to happen to them and they blamed themselves for the abuse because the people who were supposed to be their spiritual leaders convinced them that what they endured was their own fault. It's easy to convince a young mind that they were the ones that allowed the abuse to happen, even when it was a full grown adult in a position of responsibility who used them for their own sexually perverted gratification. They took advantage of children and young adults because they could be manipulated and kept silent. How embarrassing would it be to have all your friends and family know that you were sexually abused by a Sixty year old pervert. When that Sixty year old pervert has an Ace in the whole like Ashmore that he can use to clean up all of his messes, it makes things even worse. I'm not Ashmore's judge but I've heard enough to know that he was a dangerous man in the ntcc and I would like to know when he had his Damascus experience before I could ever trust him a second time.
Now, Ashmore will not come clean on this blog or any other public forum and we have no idea how he deals with this in his secret blogs that nobody is allowed to comment on. If he denies his involvement in any of these things why not just be transparent and answer for his actions? If he didn't do it than he should have nothing to hide. If he did it and repented why not be like Paul and admit to some degree that he did it and tell us of the experience he had when he got converted. His wife is out there railing against people who aren't transparent, well why can't he be transparent?
ReplyDeleteI wonder if ash signed some type of document forbidding him to talk about his involvement with the org? I'm not sure what they call this business document but it's possible that he is forbidden by law to divulge what he did for the org.
ReplyDeleteIt's kind of weird though that rw would have ash as his pallbearer and after that ash jumped ship.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteI wonder if ash signed some type of document forbidding him to talk about his involvement with the org? I'm not sure what they call this business document but it's possible that he is forbidden by law to divulge what he did for the org.
It's kind of weird though that rw would have ash as his pallbearer and after that ash jumped ship.
DNA Say,
As for ash jumped ship... This is a huge wake up call for people. If Ashmore wants out, you should leave too. But learn something from the Denis / HOP split. Don't follow these Pied Pipers off the cliff of Organized Religion! When Denis split NTCC, he promised his followers Holiness. But those who left with him quickly learned it wasn't Holiness, just more controls and more abuse; so they left him and started blogging and warning others. Don't wait for the people who follow Ashmore to start their blogs about how everything in Jesus Revival Ministries is just the same as NTCC. Just learn from the past and set yourself free from all these kooks who can't even get along with each other after 30-40 years.
As for Ashmore signing a piece of paper to keep quiet. That's a joke. He lied by signing a piece paper promising a Foreign Government that NTCC would fully support NTCC ministers in those countries. But the missionaries have testified that NTCC did not support them. And in Korea NTCC required the wives of the missionaries to work on jobs, while preaching against that very thing, saying that was "prostituting that woman". So who cares what pieces of paper these liars sign saying this or that?
Our opinion is that it's more likely that both Ashmore and the NTCC have dirt on each other. Neither one wants the other party to testify against them; because the more that becomes public, the more that the truth will snowball and all their dirty secrets will come out. So who cares what Ashmore may or not have signed? Once the Court starts to subpoena these guys to testify against each other it will be every man for himself; their lips will no longer be sealed.
We actually sent a FaceBook message to Darrin Butler, ex-NTCC Office Worker, recommending that he offer his testimony regarding his knowledge of NTCC affairs in exchange for immunity. Who knows? He didn't seem to respond favorably to our whole message. We had asked him why he left, as we do everyone that we can; and he retorted that he had already circulated an e-mail with that info. Guess we weren't on his mailing list! Why not just send a copy to us? Instead he said we should ask around for a copy? What? We'd rather hear from the horse's mouth. We feel pretty certain he would have a copy of it. Whatever, dude. We gave him sound advice, though, as far as seeking immunity in exchange for testimony.
ReplyDeleteMaybe that's why DiFrancesco has stayed with the Borg despite Ashmore leaving (also known as his in-laws' Exodus) :-p Maybe Di wants to collect more evidence for the D.A. ...
And why are the Jordans, Tim and Vaneta and Kathy and George and their girls still in NTCC? Kathy is Nin (Helen) Ashmore's sister. Tim and George are biological brothers. Why are they still in the NTCC camp and not supporting Ashmore? Hmm.
All three podcasts are very informative, I enjoyed listening. Ntcc is a very abusive organization that uses its own members for there own gain, there mission of being the last move of God on earth have fallen way, way, way short of of that mission, there mission statement sounds very, very, arrogant and full of pride."THE LAST MOVE OF GOD ON EARTH" sounds more like a sells pitch than reality. So glad to see and here folks fighting back against an abusive cult like ntcc. Thank You. Keep up the good fight.
ReplyDeleteMaurice said:
ReplyDelete""THE LAST MOVE OF GOD ON EARTH" sounds more like a sells pitch than reality."
DNA said:
Thanks for the feedback on our podcasts. We are glad that you enjoyed listening. We also appreciate your participation on our blog. You are right about the ntcc with their little catch phrases that sound like sales pitches. RW was a big time sales man. I think that he could sell all of the ntcc board members 10 acres of swamp land on top of Pikes Peak. When I look at the history of religion in the 20th century around the time that Davis was up and coming he seemed to align himself with other leaders who formed cults that were very much like the ntcc. I really believe that the ntcc had nothing to do with Davis's spirituality, but he saw the ntcc as a huge money making opportunity. Kekel also sees it that way and so does Ashmore and probably all the board members. They can throw around their little catch phrases like praise God Brother, and we love and appreciate you sir, and God bless you until they are blue in the face but where the rubber meets the road it's all about the money and the numbers. The pride of saying look what I built and the rush they get when they use their authority to talk down to others. It's all about money and as long as they can convince people that God needs their money and that they are the "Last Move Of God On Earth", they will continue to abuse and use people. It takes a while to recover from the cult experience but when you do it's easy to see how manipulative the ntcc leadership is.
I don't think there can be a nondisclosure agreement forbidding a person from revealing illegal activities.
ReplyDeleteDo you know who drove Cadillacs and wore pinky rings where I lived? The very men that I personally saw drive up to the back door of the Chinese restaurant were I worked at on Saturday nights. They would back up their black Caddies, open the trunk and fill the trunk with prime cuts of steaks for Sunday's dinner for the "Family'. These low down shysters would go to every restaurant on "The Strip" and collect their protection monies and goods. They would bleed the restaurants dry.
ReplyDeleteI guess the board members wearing diamond pinky rings and driving Cadillacs is a perfect analogy for the money grubbing Mafia that dominated my section of America.
Freebird
Ashmore has exhibited a pattern of behavior since the 70's that exhibits a nature that is opposite of Christianity. The following allegations have been made public against Ashmore and he has yet to deny or answer any of them.
ReplyDelete1. Allegedly Ashmore Jacked up Ken over and over and Humiliated him in public for his bible school notes and his hair cut and ignoring Ken about the actions of two homo predators named Batson and Peters who assaulted and left threatening notes to Bro. Ken. Instead of Ashmore getting rid of the real problem, (Batson and Peters), He tried to get rid of Bro. Ken. Ashmore decided to move Batson and Peters around to different churches and hide them until Davis had to come and confront Ashmore who lied to Davis and Davis believed Bro. Ken above Ashmore and got rid of Batson and Peters.
2. Ashmore had to get the board member Rodrigues to hold his son Larry Duran down so Ashmore could whip him several times at the church on Forest Ave.
3. Ashmore received gifts like diamond pinky rings while railing against women for wearing jewelry.
4. Ashmore jacked up Tracy Pelfrey for trying to help orphaned children saying, "We don't do that here."
5. Ashmore raped Julie.
6. Ashmore spanked and groped Lisa when she was a child.
7. Ashmore Called Lisa and Lori whores and sluts, running them out of the St. Louis church to cover Davis's sins.
8. Ashmore ostracized Moreno after he turned in Phil Kinson for retrieving his wallet from a whore house, which eventually led to a triple murder homicide.
9. Ashmore signed a letter in 1997 which was full of lies to the Korean Government that stated that Greg Shunk was ordained, Which didn't happen until 2006, and that the ntcc would provide financial support for the Shunks while they were in the country. Gregory later states that not only was the letter lying about supporting him but to keep the bills paid Gregory and Deborah would have to get jobs to support the work in Korea. Up until this point women were jacked up for working and told that they were rebellious.
10. A licensed minister said that Ashmore told him that he was unaware of the financial dealings that took place and would not admit to having any knowledge of financial improprieties of the ntcc.
My question is are these allegations all lies? If they are, what does Ashmore have to hide? If there is any truth to these allegations, (9 is not an allegation but true), why can't he admit to his role? Is he planning on continuing in this pattern of deception and lies or at some point will he get saved and change?
I know that there are folks out there with mixed feelings about what we do and how we do it. We run an open forum for the most part. If someone wants to share their experience in the ntcc they are welcome to do so. We try to provide a place where they are able to do so without being judged as they would if they spoke their mind in the ntcc. To protect people and this blog from those who would try to destroy it we have disclaimers and we use words like allegedly. We also state that what we write about is opinion based on what our own personal experiences have been. We are an X-er blog which means that we are X-members of the ntcc and we are not here to push their agenda. I try not to publish any of their junk on our blog because I don't wish to endorse them in anyway. Sometimes as in the case of the Blood Moon prophet, where Meinecke's video was so outlandish and unbelievable, that posting it on our blog did more to expose them than to endorse their agenda. We don't post links to Jim or Helen Ashmore's junk or to the ntcc web site. They are easy enough to find if you do a google search.
ReplyDeleteI feel like there are still a great number of people out there who don't really understand what we are trying to accomplish on this blog as there are a number of people out there that do understand and hate what we are doing. We don't make things up and publish them because we are hateful X-members of the ntcc. Many times people have come to us through email and shared very hurtful testimonies of abuse that they suffered in the ntcc. They could just publish what they went through on our blog and we would publish it. They have a right to do so and this is what we are here for. But a lot of times people have reservations about it and they write to us. Our first response is to ask them if they have reported it to the police or tried to use the legal system to seek justice. If they haven't it's usually because the abuse happened when they were children and they were so brainwashed by the ntcc that they didn't feel they had any options. Many have read what has been shared and they have told us that they experienced similar abuse. Many of the victims did what they thought was right and reported the abuse to people like Olson and Davis who did the opposite of what they were supposed to do. Instead of going to the police or dealing with the abuse they brushed it under the carpet and did everything in their power to hide it. We are now doing what they should have done in the first place. We are making people aware of what happened in the ntcc and what they have been hiding for so many years. For some reason this makes people mad. We are of the opinion that overlooking the culture of abuse in the ntcc is naive, gullible and borderline just plain ignorant. There is too much to brush under the carpet. If you read the Ashmore list in the last comment and think that he is someone that can be trusted and that everyone of the 10 items on that list are lies, than by all means, join his group. Knock yourself out. But why hate us. We didn't make up one thing on that list. Everything on that list came from different testimonies of different people who have left the ntcc. Get mad at all ten of them, or better yet get mad at the source which is Ashmore. He created that list, we just penned it down.
There are some folks that choose to direct their anger towards us and they are more interested in finding fault with the victims of abuse than they are outraged at the predators who have created the victims. What we are doing is an outrage because we choose to believe the victims of abuse. They find it more important to point out to people not to believe everything you hear. Or they'll say, "I'm sure there is sexual abuse in the ntcc" as a disclaimer and then they show their true colors by adding, "But don't believe every thing you hear" and they'll proceed to use their energy to try to disparage what we are doing. Why would exposing the ntcc make people that have left so mad? Why does someone care more about scrutinizing every detail that has been shared by an ntcc victim, more than they care about scrutinizing the predators that they admit exist within the ntcc? If certain individuals would take their background and investigation skills and use them to find a lawyer or uncover more truth about the ntcc, they would be doing the world a favor. We are not contributing to the pedophilia of the ntcc by pointing it out, but raising awareness to it. I'm not dragging your name through the dirt even though you claim to have a bunch of inflammatory things you want to say to me. I'm not making it personal and therefore I am not mentioning your name, but when I warn people to not to discount a witness just because their own personal feeling is that they are not telling the whole truth, why does that provoke you to threaten me with inflammatory remarks? Do you want to draw this debate out into public so you can make it about you or me? Are you wanting to be right that bad? For me it's not about wanting to be right or wrong, so if I've wronged you to the point that you want to drag it out into public, then do so on the other blog that you called me out on and if the moderator of that blog will publish my comments I will answer you there. If that doesn't work for you, just send me a facebook message and deal with it man to man. Just because I don't want to turn this blog into a free for all and allow you to tear down the people who have already suffered abuse in the ntcc, doesn't mean than you have to make a public display elswhere, and I really don't think you want to go there. For those of you that don't know what I'm talking about, It's not Chief's blog or Greg's blog. I'm not wanting argue back and forth publicly about the past that has been shared with us of the victims of ntcc abuse. I've said before that there is so much more to talk about and I personally believe the people who have shared on our blog. If you support them or can at least tolerate what they have shared, you are welcome to comment on this blog, but I'm not going to allow anyone to disparage them here. They've already been through too much as children and nobody including their own parents would help or support them. Why do people find it so important to tear them down in public? If you have proof that something shared on this blog is incorrect than I'll hear you, but so far all I've heard is a bunch of opinionated personal attacks. It amazes me. If someone shares there testimony that has nothing to do with physical or sexual abuse, everyone is so quick to support them and their testimonies are never scrutinized by X-members. When someone shares their life story and it involves abuse, the same people want to open an investigation into every little detail shared and they want to do it on this blog. Sorry, if we don't accommodate you. There is nothing stopping you from starting your own blog and you can say whatever you want.
ReplyDeleteI think that any legitimate church would take allegations like this and if there were any truth upon the initial investigation then an all out assault to find predators would occur. It's like you say D/A, they persecute the victim. What does that say about you, as a human being... I'd put that mentality into the same bin as serial killer. You have to have zero remorse/empathy to pull this off.
ReplyDeleteMike
Ashmore leaving ntcc was just one step in his cult rehabilitation, he may have also prayed and repented, however, he still have a Christian obligation to make things right with the brothers and sisters that he have hurt. After he and his wife having spent forty years as members of ntcc, they both should probably attend some sort of a cult rehabilitation class, because they both probably still have those cutltish ways.
ReplyDeleteFor someone that has never been repeatedly physically or sexually abused it is hard to wrap one's mind around the testimonies of such repeated abuse in NTCC. To those folks I say please Google "Fundamental Christianity sexual and physical abuse". You will see that this kind of abuse in Tolatarian cults is the norm not the exception. You will also find how once a person is victimized it is VERY COMMON for other perpetrators to reoffend the same persons.
ReplyDeleteD/A's exposure of such allegations are healing to the victims. The victims know that those that are brainwashed will never believe them. Guess what? That's okay because the non Koolaide drinkers may open their eyes and watch for such abuses and hopefully rescue themselves and their children from the grips of this sick Fundamental Cult.
I hate to say this but Fundamentalism breeds oppression and abuse of women and children. It also puts an undue burden on men to keep their wives and kids in line. I have seen kind and gentle men turn into crazed idiots believing their salvation depended on their wives and kids following the man made NTCC rules.
It doesn't matter how you dress up Fundamentalism be it Islamic, Christian, Judaism, Jehovah Witness, Mormonism, etc.
Fundamentalism in any group has several
common goals- destroy the personhood of the individual so they no longer can have a healthy relationship with their higher power, place women and children in total submission to men, keep the people in constant fear and chaos (thus rule by fear and ever changing man made rules) and only a small group of leaders will financially thrive.
How is NTCC any different? Kekel may have changed a few rules but just because you put lipstick on a pig it doesn't stop being a pig!
How is Ashmore any different? D/A have given you the opportunity to speak up James and tell all us EX-NTCCERS and NTCCERS how you are different.
Once again, I only hear crickets....
Freebird
You know, many years ago there were other good preachers with NTCC and like many today, bailed out. Alot of the NTCCites today know nothing of Salvador, Baja, Madiina, Blumenthal, Willie Gordon, Roxroy Reed, just to name a few. Since the conception of NTCC, people have been coming and going. You know you can out grow this organization to the point where you must leave cuz it is vital to your walk with God.
ReplyDeleteTwo new Podcasts are up. Podcast 4 and Podcast 5. I don't mean to confuse anyone, but normally you would listen to the one at the top of the list. Since we published two at the same time, Podcast 4 is next to the top and Podcast 5 is on top. This Podcast is entitled The Tiemans Traveling Treasure tour - a Compilation of Money and Numbers from Social Media. Parts 1 and 2.
ReplyDeletePodcast 4 and 5 (Click here)
Remember to select Podcast 4 and then Podcast 5 afterwards if you want to hear them in order. Thanks for listening.
Mike said:
ReplyDelete"I think that any legitimate church would take allegations like this and if there were any truth upon the initial investigation then an all out assault to find predators would occur."
DNA said:
You are right about that. Not only churches but parents who have any of their kids in groups that are high risk. Unfortunately people in churches and other groups like Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts or any group where one adult might be alone with your children, you need to do your homework. The ntcc is a paradise for pedophiles, perverts and predators because everyone that attends the ntcc thinks that the ntcc is God's last and only hope for mankind. You can't even warn them about the dangers of spiritual abuse that they face individually, it's no wonder some of them have lost track of their children. They are taught to beat their children into submission and that their entire family is to be in subjection to the Pastor. If they don't even believe they are in a cult they won't possibly believe that their children are in danger. What an environment ripe for molest, incest, rape and any other sick thing you could imagine. I know that there are a lot of people who don't believe us, won't believe us or refuse to believe us. What if we are right? What if we aren't in this for any other reason than we know that the ntcc is a nesting place for sexual deviant people and that children and women are in serious danger in the ntcc. I know a lot of people don't take this stuff to heart. Some think we are over stepping boundaries others think we are making junk up and others think we are God haters. In case you haven't noticed, we are beyond caring what people think. We know that many in the ntcc have been abused. Okay, let's pretend that the ntcc is Sodom and Gomorrah. Let's pretend that your children are in the ntcc. You are Abraham and God has told you that He plans to destroy the ntcc because it's an abusive cult. Let's say that you ask God if there is only one Pedophile in the ntcc would you destroy everyone, and God said if there is one, I will spare them. Would you quit negotiating and think surely there can't be more than one. I don't believe all the victims on this blog are telling the truth. What if it were your children? Would you ask God to up the number? God if there are only 2 Pedophiles will you destroy them all? How high would you go before you were to trust that your kids wouldn't be destroyed with all the pedophiles in the ntcc? You all have heard the testimonies and many don't believe the girls who came forward, but what if it were your children. Would you raise it to 5 maybe 10? Now I realize this is a crude illustration. But those of you who are still in the ntcc are so legalistic that you need to look at it this way. You think that God is going to strike you dead if you don't pay your tithe. So what is this God that wants your money so bad going to do about the perverts in the ntcc? What do you expect us to do, sit here and watch you destroy yourselves? Unfortunately all I can do is warn you and get as plain as I can about what we know. It's unacceptable to us that one child should be sacrificed to a pervert just because the parents are too brain dead to see whats going on around them. It's disturbing. You are the only one who can protect your wife and children in this environment. Unfortunately the people you trust are not looking out for your child's best interest in the ntcc.
Maurice said...
ReplyDeleteAshmore leaving ntcc was just one step in his cult rehabilitation, he may have also prayed and repented, however, he still have a Christian obligation to make things right with the brothers and sisters that he have hurt.
DNA said:
Absolutely right. You can't expect all of God's promises to be poured out on you when you have a list of people who you've offended and hurt. If you can't love your brother who you have seen, how can you love God who you have not seen? Your prayers and preaching mean nothing if you offend your brother and don't care about making it right. You can have faith to move a mountain, you can heal the sick in Jesus name and perform miracles, but if you hurt the least of God's children, you might want to "hold that thought" the next time you wail at the altar, and make things right with your brother.
Freebird said:
ReplyDelete"That's okay because the non Koolaide drinkers may open their eyes and watch for such abuses and hopefully rescue themselves and their children from the grips of this sick Fundamental Cult. "
DNA said:
You know, when you do come home one day and your child tugs on your sleeve with tears in their eyes and tries to tell you that when they was left alone with some minister for long enough to become another molested victim we hope that you find mercy from God and grace to deal with such a horrific tragedy. Now you can prevent this from happening. Don't blindly leave your child's fate in someone else's hands. It's really to late to warn people that are in a cult that they are in a cult, but we hope you will consider what is shared here. Your children are precious but nobody is more responsible than you are to take care of them and keep them out of harms way. All it takes is a half an hour alone with the wrong person. Listen to your children if they feel uncomfortable being around someone. Stay alert watch carefully for the signs. If someone likes to touch your kids a lot, I don't care what ntcc title they hold, it's your responsibility to protect them and if you think a title or an ntcc reputation makes them pure and holy, you better do some research because that is the one you should be the most scared of.
Bryan Hill said:
ReplyDelete"Alot of the NTCCites today know nothing of Salvador, Baja, Madiina, Blumenthal, Willie Gordon, Roxroy Reed, just to name a few."
DNA said:
There are so many people that have left and the ntcc reached it's peak population years ago. It's a shame that they treated people so badly. Good people have left and many that are around today don't realize that it was because of these people like the ones you mentioned that the ntcc was successful. I think some people leave just because the ntcc is stagnant and people realize that if they stay, they will remain stagnant with them. There is very little hope for a person inside the ntcc. There is hope in God, but many ntcc'rs get confused and think that their place in the ntcc is going to change or get better as they devote themselves to God. They think that the ntcc leadership will see their dedication and love for God and will find favor with them. This is where so many people are mistaken. They all know that God is ultimately the one that matters but they believe that the ntcc leadership is closer to God than they are and they get confused to who they are following.
It breaks down in a very simple way. A soul is lost. That soul goes to church and hears a Salvation message. The soul prays and is now saved. The soul trusts the group of people that led them to Christ. Those people than introduce other doctrines, some biblical and others not. The newly saved soul doesn't understand that their is a church world out there that wants to exploit them but because the person loves God and wants to please God he trusts in the people that led him to God to be the guide for their soul. They grow up in a world of spiritual confusion and are taught that they should obey their spiritual leaders. Fear is introduced as a way of life. Strict boundaries are set and consequences are imposed when boundaries are crossed. Condemnation of falling short and misplaced trust leads the person to fear the very one that intended to make them free. The leaders of the abusive group convince the hurt individual that they should blame themselves, that everything negative that happens to them is the result of their own failures.
The end result of what the ntcc has done is equal to spiritual genocide. Look at all of the people who have come and gone. Who has benefitted? They can't keep people over long periods of time because what they have to offer them isn't real and it definitely isn't God.
Two new Podcasts are up. Podcast 4 and Podcast 5. I don't mean to confuse anyone, but normally you would listen to the one at the top of the list first. Since we published two parts at the same time, Podcast 4 is next to the top and Podcast 5 is on top. This Podcast is entitled The Tiemans Traveling Treasure tour - a Compilation of Money and Numbers from Social Media. Parts 1 and 2.
ReplyDeletePodcast 4 and 5 (Click here)
Remember to select Podcast 4 and then Podcast 5 afterwards if you want to hear them in order. Thanks for listening. We've also added a feature that allows you to download the podcasts directly from our X-er blog site. This allows you to listen to the podcast any time you like whenever you want and you can delete it when you are done. Each Podcast is about ten MB or less.
I remember Gordon. He was the campground's cook.
ReplyDeleteLater on I heard that he let pride come to his life because of his success as a pastor and that was his downfall the short version given of why he left ntcc.
Back to ashmore, I recall one skit in particular, it was at the campground , but in this skit ashmore was made fun of. I remember that the skit was about how to be a good pastor in the ntcc!
But they portrayed different kinds of pastors and one of them was a guy who would spray Lysol all over the microphone and they made him look like a germophobe kind of guy, he would right away get the hand sanitizer after shaking hands, spraying the person with Lysol I mean it was was hilarious.
Who knows maybe this was a way of the org to minimize ashmore's influence in the ntcc. Everything they did in the ntcc had a meaning and you'd better be off not get on the wrong side of things because they would have your number!
I heard that Willie Gordon really left because his congregation raised money for a church and the NTCC insisted on holding the title. Something like that. Sounds like he made a sensible decision. It was pretty funny too, because Willie went from being beyond criticism to a devil in a moment of time. If these guys have so much discernment, how come they never see it coming?
ReplyDeleteThe lysol/hand sanitizer thing is ironic, because RW practiced both. Maybe they were obliquely mocking him, since they're "moving on" from "holiness." Fixation on germs usually indicates unresolved psychological problems. RW did seem quite OCD and paranoid.
Is this even a fundamentalist church anymore? What parts of the holiness doctrine do they still follow?
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteVic said
"I heard that Willie Gordon really left because his congregation raised money for a church and the NTCC insisted on holding the title. Something like that".
Hey Vic you got it right, I went and visited Willie in sierra vista in 94 and he told me the whole story. His church raised every red cent to buy the land and build a 400 seat church all without borrowing a dime. Rev Olson came down to ensure the deed was put in the orgs name. Now his church had some mature and smart people in it who would not allow this to happen and as Willie said, "I don't have a bunch of GI's in my church I have business owners, people who ask questions". When Willie realized that the org was basically stealing his church members years of hard work, he pulled out. Then the org went to work on destroying his character. Roxroy Reed, in Tuscon was told to leave and go to a place he felt God was not calling him, he made his case to RW that God was calling him to Tuscon and that he had a burden for the people of that area and he was told something to the effect of "your going to (can't remember the place) and don't worry about praying about it I already did" by RW. This blew Roxroy away that he was told such heartless words totally disregarding the burden God had placed on him. There literally are hundreds of these type of stories that took place prior to 80% of the present NTCCites that exist in the org today. The Lording over God's heritage to me has been the crime of the century as far as I am concerned. Kekel, Olson, RW, Johnson, Jones and the rest of these self appointed apostles are in for the shock of a life time when they one day realize they have set themselves above the precious and priceless work and call of God as Lords of God's heritage. I'm speaking to some of you sincere God called preachers right now presently in the grips of a self serving organization. You were bought and paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ alone, do not allow your life's service, your time, your money, your mind, your will, your family, your autonomy you have in Christ and more importantly your loyalty to Christ - all be intercepted and defined by these men who consider themselves beneficiaries or reapers of your material goods. They see themselves as having a stake in your life because you are saved and they will require of you to have an allegiance to them as administers of your salvation that was bought by Christ. Grow a pair and stand up for yourself, these A-holes put their pants on the same way as you do. Quit cheapening What God did for you by exalting an silly organization like NTCC. If your under any of these so called leaders, and you are ready to break free all you have to do to free yourself is walk up to him and say "I have out grown this ministry, thank you for your time". the next day your very best friends will be shunning you and the work of discrediting you will of begun. You will see the light; that you were not loved genuinely. You will in time thank me for helping you and others for the labor to get the truth to you. If you do not want this, then you are one of them, a religious person who claims Christ but serves man. I truly hope you wake up some day.