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A friend and brother that used to attend one of the churches in the ntcc contacted us today and we talked for a couple hours about old times. So much of the Good stuff that happened back in the 80's and 90's is a blur but other things were very memorable. We shared a lot of the true accounts of some of the stuff we went through and it really solidifies our reason for leaving the ntcc and it also substantiates what we all know and have known for years. We are not going to publish his name but with his permission we are going to share a few crumbs from the table. The first thing that was shared with us was that our friend heard a radio preacher while he was driving in the oil fields of North Dakota and this radio preacher was talking about trust and how that its hard for people to trust. He then shared that the preacher said that while he was in the service he got invited out to a cult down in Georgia and got involved with that cult. He then said that the cult was called New Testament Christian Church. The full course is yet be shared, but for now we'll have to settle for crumbs. Our friend is going to find out exactly who it was preaching on that radio station and give him a call. We might or might not have more to say about it depending on what we find out. We found it very interesting that someone out in the middle of nowhere would be on the radio preaching against the ntcc. We recently did a post on another ntcc member that found his way out of the ntcc decades ago and has been in the ministry preaching against the ntcc for years also.
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| Radio Preachers Recognize NTCC as a Cult |
So we continued our conversation and began to reminisce on the phone about times we spent in the ntcc. We were not in the same church but we used to fellowship and I drove the brother to conference one time. The brother told me how Denis used to aggressively collect tithe from the brothers in the home. He would escort the brothers to the ATM machine and collect the cash from them almost as fast as the machine could spit the money out. I can almost see Denis with his hand in front of the money dispenser as the brother was entering his pin #. Denis would tell the brothers to pay twenty dollars more than their actual tithe was. He would say something like, Would it kill you to put an extra $20 on that? Would it kill ya? Now many of us were also told to pay a little over or to round up so that God would have room to bless us. If you paid your tithe down to the penny you were frowned upon because if the rapture took place and someone bought you a soda, you wouldn't be covered and you would be considered overweight. Five cents too heavy to go in the rapture. The question should not be, "Will a Man Rob God"? It should be, "Will a man rob the people of God"? Now Denis was one of the most 'successful' ministers in the ntcc if you measure success by money and numbers. I was a little bit amazed at the efficiency and cold calculation that was exhibited by Denis. He actually discouraged another minister from going after married military couples because "they have lots of problems and no money!" Denis also taught another minister that his time was more important then to spend it counseling married couples. All of this foolishness was taught by Davis. Now I believe Denis took it to a whole new level as the architect of the largest split to date in ntcc history. He calculated and orchestrated the split and successfully got a bunch of preachers and church members to follow him out of the ntcc after draining several church accounts, (otherwise known as embezzling) and stealing furniture from the servicemen's homes right out from underneath RWD's nose. People were coming to Davis trying to warn him about Denis but he would rebuke them for bringing accusations against Denis. This was all learned behavior that Denis gleaned from being around Davis for years.
Then we talked about how that T.P Jordan was down there initially to start that work and was bragging that he had 25 people out to church but half of them were his own family members some of which were visiting from Florida. Jordan said that GI's were gullible and that they were targeted by the organization because they would give lots of money and fall in line with all the rules without asking questions. We have to admit that this statement seems to be pretty true because that's what we all did. Some might ask, why do you even blog about this stuff, is it really that important? It lets others know that it wasn't their fault. My friend said that he left the ntcc feeling like another worthless human being that washed out of the ntcc and he felt like that for so many years. Many of us felt that way. We were taught to feel that way and when we share this stuff on the blogs others realize that it was all wrong. We might be at fault for believing them but we are not lost because we left them. We woke up and did the best thing we could have done. If you find your way out of the ntcc, don't feel guilty. Rejoice and be exceeding glad. You have done what so many are unable to do. You should feel exonerated that you got your life back. You are the captain of your own ship, but if you allow someone else to take the controls, it is not you living for God, but them telling you how you must live for God. Whatever you do with your life is your business. Being successful in life is not a sin. Spending time with your family is not a sin. If you are going to church 5 times a week and your marriage is falling apart, you are broke and can't pay bills stop paying your tithe to a bunch of crooks and find a new church. Maybe the cult you are in is causing the marriage problems you are having. If you do not take care of your family, you are worse than an infidel. If your church doesn't give you the time that you need to spend with your family, than you are probably in a cult and you would be more right with God by leaving that church than you would staying with them. Don't let some religious nut be the cause of your family splitting up.
EXTRA CRUMBS:
The Brother that sent this just told me one time Denis got word of a 7 day per week schedule and instituted it in the home in Hinesville. The brother was said what everyone else was thinking, "What about a night off? Denis scolded the guy, telling him, "This world is coming to an end, brother". Another example of more control and manipulation. Keep them so busy they won't have time to think.
Scripture of the day: 2 The 3:7-10
ReplyDelete"For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;"
They didn't preach that the people in the church of Thessalonians should live one way while Paul lived a different Gospel. Paul wasn't out committing adultery. Paul wasn't getting rich off of the labors of others.
vs. 8 "Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:"
What this means is that Paul never charged the Thessalonians 10% cash for the privilege of hearing him preach. Paul paid for the food he ate because he didn't want to set a bad example and he didn't want the Thessalonians to end up like the Graham Washatonians who expect to be fed for free and waited on hand and foot and paid for their presence as they roll up in their Recreational Vehicles. Guess who they are going to task with feeding that gas guzzling monstrosity? Paul worked with his hands so that he would not be chargeable to any of them. I guess Paul didn't know what he was doing. Paul was condemning those poor Thessalonians to hell because he made them God robbers by not collecting their tithe. It's time to wake up ntcc'rs! Can you read this scripture and honestly believe that you are going to hell if you don't pay your tithe? Paul must of sent a lot of people to hell because even in the church of Corinthians when he took up offerings for the poor saints in Jerusalem, he didn't demand tithe. So I guess your ntcc Pastor knows more than God. I would say, no, 'and a thousand times no, (That's Davis Jargon thrown back at you).
vs. 9 "Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us."
They had the power to collect whatever they wanted to, because the Thessalonians just like the Washatonians wanted to go to heaven. They were loyal. Paul could have used that power to carry over the 10% tithe and twisted that scripture so he could have gotten filthy rich like the Graham Washatonians. The difference is that Paul was a Christian. He was called to preach the gospel, not to brain wash a bunch of people and get filthy rich off of them.
vs. 10 "For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat."
The early church believed in working for a living. If you were a preacher or a church member and didn't have a job, you were considered to be a busy body in those days. If you don't believe me read the rest of 2nd Thessalonians. The ntcc is set up to create a bunch of non-working busy bodies that are overly involved in all of their church members lives, while they sit on their fat and lazy butts barking out orders and collecting tithe like they are entitled.
Paul never went around preaching that the main goal of a preacher was to become full time. He set the example by working with his own hands and then told them that the ones that were not working are busybodies, not working at all, but walking disorderly. He's telling people like Kekel that they should work quietly and eat their own bread.
ReplyDeleteAll these so called preachers that travel across the country on your dime and then hit you up for all their expenses are doing the opposite of what the bible says. Do any of you even believe in the bible? Next time one of those busybody preachers comes around and tries to tell you how to live, you should get in his face and tell him that Paul warned us of people like you. You have no right to come around here and eat our food that we paid for and then charge us money to hear you preach. You are nothing more than a busybody, walking disorderly among us, according to Paul. Eat your own food and buy your own Gas. You aren't sacrificing anything, driving around in a Quarter Million Dollar Recreational Vehicle on an all expense paid vacation across the country while everyone else is struggling to make ends meet. You are not qualified to tell other people how to live you bunch of busybodies and meddlers in other peoples affairs. You want to be fed and paid? Go get on welfare you freeloading hypocrites because we aren't going to pay your way anymore. You say you love people and you literally leave them in poverty while you live in the lap of luxury? Bunch of lying hypocrites.
OH MY, if this post doesn't wake up the clueless than I don't know what will.
ReplyDeleteWhile I wasn't a pastor I could see that other than a couple of suits and 6/7 ties they had nothing to their names. When will you all wake up from your self righteous ways? Or do you like being dictators too much? Do you have aspirations of becoming an overseer to jack up other pastors and brothers?
Read what D/A said at least 3 more times and then go to the True Stories of NTCC website and read every story there twice too. If you are still not convinced keep your crumbs while I have my Monthly NY Strip at Ruth's Chris Steakhouse.
Mike
I was thinking of NTCC and their policy on paying tithe this morning and a moment I witnessed as a teenager.
ReplyDeleteI was standing in the sanctuary in Graham I believe it was after a service. Ralph Joan and I were standing near Kekel. Kekel stopped a young single bible school student I don't know his name or remember what Kekel called him but when Kekel spoke to this young man you could feel the tension. Kekel said, "It was brought to my attention that you didn't pay your tithe on your last paycheck." The man looked at Kekel with fear and started stammering. He said Oh sorry sir I actually forgot I think I put that money in my gas tank forgetting that was cash for tithe. Kekel told him, Don't you know at this moment, if you were to die you will go to hell? I thought the guy was going to cry or faint or both. Kekel then told the guy the only way he could be forgiven of his sin was to pay double tithe on that check. The young man seemed shook up by this. The young man then said Sir if I do that I will not have any money for food and not enough gas to get through the week. Kekel then said you should have thought of that before you robbed from God then said this must not have been the first time or you would not be so broke. Remember you still need to pay tithe on this paycheck too. The young man said Yes Sir I am so sorry I will make it right and walked away looking so defended. In my young mind I thought God really doesn't care about anyone.He must like seeing people go hungry.
I turned to Ralph St.Clair and said are all poor people robbing from God? Before anyone could say anything Kekel said what a dumb question to be asking. Then nothing more was said and my question wasn't answered.
Hugs,
Julie
If you paid just exactly 10% tithe you were considered stingy with God and not wanting the blessings or it would be preached you stingy people better be careful or God might take all your money.
ReplyDeleteAs I read this post of the memories that come to mind about all the preaching about money.
Hugs,
Julie
I remember a similar incident at the bible college where Kekel confronted a brother for paying it late. The bro. worked at same place as me and quite a few others, so kekel obviously knew when payday was. I did not hear the brother's response but Kekel gritted his teeth and very rudely said "pay it on time." I recently heard of can instance where an office worker mistakenly made a deposit of over $10,000 and got the wrath of Kekel as all deposits of that size or more are tracked by the IRS. Why should they be concerned about that???
ReplyDeleteMike said:
ReplyDelete" Do you have aspirations of becoming an overseer to jack up other pastors and brothers?"
DNA said:
I would say that many of those that remain in the ntcc strive to become what they see and what they are taught. Many of the ntcc ministers that crossed my path, (and there are quite a few), had a certain heir of scumbag entitlement. I remember that the ntcc used to teach that you couldn't say that word because it meant a used condom. I just looked it up in webster's dictionary and it was defined as a dirty and despicable person. It also was used in a sentence to describe a con-artist. But nowhere in the definition did it say anything about used condoms. I'm sure if you do an extensive search and check the urban dictionary that you might find someone who used that term in a number of derogatory ways, but why should we be judged by them?
I remember that the ntcc used to quote that scripture in Isaiah 64:6 all the time. They would all get behind the pulpit and they loved to bring out the fact that filthy rags were women's menstrual cloths. They would regurgitate that scripture over and over because they heard Davis say that. It was okay to talk about Women's menstrual cloths but don't say the word scumbag because it is like a social curse word or it means this or that. Guess what? I got to thinking why should these double standard hypocrites leave any influence in our lives?
One of the best ways to recover from the cult experience is to forget everything they taught you. If you try to apply all the junk they taught you to your own life, you might as well live by the law of Moses. The Torah. There is a new cult called 119 ministries that wants people to go back to the Old Testament and keep the feasts. They don't want people to say the name of Jesus anymore, and they don't want them to celebrate Christmas. You have to say words like Yashua instead of Jesus and Torah instead of the bible. A lot of people, I mean a lot, are caught up in this cult, and once they get in, they get their hooks in you and you become just as lost as an ntcc'r. You can't tell them anything.
I hate cults and I hate the ntcc. I hate the way they treat people. I hate what they do to children. God hated Esau more than Jacob and Jesus was angry with the Pharisees so don't get sanctimonious and tell me it's a sin to hate. I blog hoping that one day people will be free to make their own decisions, and if they choose to be a Christian they'll be much better off making that decision of their own free will rather than having someone else do all their thinking for them.
Sorry, I got off on a tangent there. But there were many that wanted that power over others to jack them up, and if you had the power to jack up other preachers that made you really special. I really think that many of the ntcc'rs are in it for that. That's what they learned and that's what they've been taught. Jesus jacked up the Pharisees a lot. He also rebuked the disciples from time to time but his focus was more on nurturing and admonishing than it was on jacking them up. To be an ntcc leader you have to jack people up. Like Jones telling Chief that he couldn't be a used car sales man and still be saved. What would Jones know about being saved. He refuses to preach revivals at places when they don't pay him. He charges money to be heard. He don't care about souls or salvation and neither do any of the board members that drive those RV's around the country.
ReplyDeleteJulie said:
ReplyDelete"I turned to Ralph St.Clair and said are all poor people robbing from God? Before anyone could say anything Kekel said what a dumb question to be asking."
DNA said:
There are a lot of poor people in this world that live from free meals to free meals. If they were to show up at the ntcc they would be run out on a rail. Like the the rich man who fared sumptuously every day and Lazarus the poor beggar that sat at the rich man's gate daily desiring to be fed from the "CRUMBS FROM THE TABLE". The dogs which probably got the crumbs came and licked his sores. Lazarus was too poor to pay his tithe, he didn't even get crumbs to eat from the rich man, and yet he was Carried away to Abraham's Bosom. The rich man died and went in the opposite direction.
You non bible believing ntcc'rs should read this scripture and take it to heart because this rich man described in Luke 16 is a lot like Kekel and Davis. If paying tithe were a requirement to get to heaven why did Lasarus the beggar go? The rich man fared sumptuously but wouldn't even give the poor man crumbs from his table. Just think what would happen if a poor person was laid out in front of the gate to the Bonco. Kekel would call the police and have him removed. So would 90% of the people that live in the Bonco because they could care less about poor people. Davis said, "You can't build a church with poor people".
Anonymous said:
ReplyDelete"I recently heard of an instance where an office worker mistakenly made a deposit of over $10,000 and got the wrath of Kekel as all deposits of that size or more are tracked by the IRS. Why should they be concerned about that???"
DNA said:
I remember that teaching. Davis would teach the pastors and workers to never make a deposit over $10,000 because it would raise a red flag with the IRS, and the IRS would take a closer look at them. They would break down their larger deposits and make make several deposits for that reason. Why would you worry about the IRS taking a closer look at you if you were God fearing, law abiding citizens? Could it be that then ntcc leadership was ripping off the U.S. Government? Is it possible that the ntcc leaders were cheating on their taxes and didn't want to be hauled off in handcuffs to the Federal Penitentiary?
Why do you think that Davis always dealt in cash? Why would they very seldom give out receipts and try to discourage brothers not to file their tithes and offerings as a tax deduction? Even Pop Gaylord disregarded that rule and taught others the same. Davis also taught that you should pay tithe on your tax return, and that was money you already paid tithe on. Davis and many of his wannabe ministers would teach the same thing. They would ask you, as if you were a stupid moron, Is it an increase? And you would say, "Yes Sir, it is", and you would pay your tithe on it for a second time like an idiot. Pop Gaylord would say you don't have to pay tithe on your tax return because you already have. Pop also filed his returns and used his tithes and offerings as Tax deductions. He told me this. I would guess that Double Standard Davis did too, but he told others the opposite so he would benefit and the IRS would not look in on his so called non-profit operation. I guess Pop Gaylord and Davis served two different Gods.
ReplyDeleteAs a pastor in NTCC, I know one of many things that has really bothered me.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn’t write it here if they would only answer our questions.
When we bought our Church and thankfully NTCC put up the funds, I asked, What is the interest rate? They would not answer me.
They never send us a statement. How will I know when this is paid off? We’ve been paying for years, what is our current status?
Nothing.
Then I figured out it was probably equivalent to a 6.5% interest rate @ 30 years. Which at the time was great! But now, interest rates are at 3.75%
And for a 15 year its down to 3%. So I asked, Can we refinance this loan and pay it off sooner and that would help us go full time sooner
As well as take off the burden of a mortgage payment off of the back of the congregation.
He just looked at me. No answer.
I thought to myself, This is really weird. Shady, really.
After I am dead and gone, who knows if they will just keep on charging this congregation & pastor for a mortgage or for renting this place.
It doesn’t make any sense to me.
I don’t understand why there has to be so much secrecy? Why not a mortgage statement? Why not an Escrow statement?
Or at least give it out once a year?
Pastor with the church mortgage who wants to refinance. Your logic to refinance makes perfect sense. But really you answered your own questions in your own posts...shady. So now, what are you going to do? You are better off going independent and starting your own work. After all you and your wife have done all of the heavy lifting; not the folks in Graham. Buildings are easy to find. Take your group and let N.T.C.C keep their building and their mortgage.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said:
ReplyDelete"I asked, What is the interest rate? They would not answer me."
"So I asked, Can we refinance this loan and pay it off sooner and that would help us go full time sooner
As well as take off the burden of a mortgage payment off of the back of the congregation.
He just looked at me. No answer."
DNA said:
This is a regular practice in the ntcc. I'm pretty sure they charge everyone rent, if the building is paid for or not. I know that every church I had ever gone to in the ntcc was had rent payments attached to it.
I really think what you are doing is the right thing, but it might be a death sentence. By coming on this blog and sharing details that they are aware of you might be marking yourself for public humiliation and possibly removal from your church. The good thing about it is that we are blogging about it and all of the ntcc'rs that read this blog and are wondering the same thing will know.
I know you probably have a good testimony and haven't done anything wrong but by coming on here they will put two and two together. I'm sharing this not to give them any ideas, but usually when we get out in front of stuff like this, it makes them look very stupid if they were to do exactly what we say we think the'll do. They do read this blog and they love their money. We haven't had many current Pastors on here for quite some time that we know of, but some post anonymously.
The ntcc has always been secretive about the escrow funds, secretive about the church mortgage, secretive about their cash flow. I have to say that what they do is not honest and what they do is not transparent. I doubt if they have one church in which they do not charge rent. If they let you know what the payoff is and you paid it off then you could tell others that the church is paid off and they would feel awfully stupid forcing their congregation to pay for a building that is already paid off.
The ntcc uses people but they don't do things that will benefit you. If you did pay the church off and found out that it was paid for, they would move you in a heart beat so they could charge someone else rent money. The question is, where does all that money go. How much do they actually pay per month? Is it the exact same as what you pay or are they making a profit? How does a Non-profit organization get away with this kind of thing? The answer is that there are not enough people like you in the organization. Most of the ntcc Pastors just do what they are told and they assume that their leaders and overseers would never take advantage of them.
ReplyDeleteMany of the ntcc Pastors are too fearful to say anything and the sad thing is that so many of them that you think are your friends, don't have your back. They will watch as you go down in a blaze of glory and they will say nothing, because they don't want to be the next example. So even though others know that you are 100% right they are driven by fear as opposed to love.
This is not Christianity. The love of God and the love of money are two completely different concepts. I hope that they give you the answers that you want and leave you alone. But then again I also hope that people will see what the ntcc leadership is all about. Usually when they jack some one up really bad in public for something that is not a sin, it causes others to see their true colors. Most of the preachers that leave the organization leave because they were treated badly by people like Kekel who has done very little if anything outside of Graham. I doubt if Olson has ever pastored a church either. If he has it wasn't for very long. Why should you or anyone in a Christian Church get jacked up or removed from your congregation because you are trying to do the right thing and pay off your church so your congregation won't be burdened with the payments? Is asking about that a sin? Than why didn't they answer. It's sad to say, but you probably will get some kind of answer now that you mentioned it publicly.
Just know this, that if you have to face any wrath from these guys, it is not your fault. The sad thing about it is that you have invested years of your life in the ntcc. My sincere hope is that you find your way out of this circus and don't let it effect your relationship with God. If they do remove you or try to jack you up, be honest with your congregation and tell them that what happened has nothing to do with Christianity. Do everything you can to keep them from having to waste so many years of their lives in the ntcc. Take them with you and start a new church. That's what others have done, but if you do that try to lead with love instead of fear. Unlearn the junk that they taught you and trust your own judgement and conscience because I'm pretty sure that you'll be better off doing that than following these hypocrites. If you want, hit us up at 1gi2another@gmail.com. We wish you the very best.
I recall Solomon's son who put more financial pressure on folks than his father, sounds like what's going on in Graham. And Solomon was pretty rich. And his son was pretty rich. The kingdom split. It fractured, this is what's rumblimg in Graham. God is allowing these who went off their rockers to diminish. The read the Bible, but have no heart for common goodness. If they won't believe the Bible, read church history! I once taught church history at ntcc, I asked RW if I could teach it up to the point at which wew were, breaking from pcog, he said NO. Figure that!
ReplyDeleteI agree Brother D. It seems like they tailor the bible to suite their own purposes. They place emphasis on the parts of the bible that they can use to gain money. They are using the bible the way a car dealer uses the Kelly blue book to sell cars. The car dealer uses the same book you do but they give you trade in value. The average Joe Blow off the streets wants to get the higher price which is given in the same book if you are selling to a private party. Many used car dealers are trying to make a living off of commission and they will low ball you on the trade in value. Sometimes they might give you a little more than trade in value but they'll jack up the price of the car they are selling. As a buyer you have to use the same book to negotiate the best price for your car if you wish to trade it in. You are going to want top value, while they are only going to want to give you the low end price. What the consumer needs to do is visit a few different places and find out which dealership will give them the most for their car while selling theirs for the least.
ReplyDeleteThe difference is that what Jesus offered is supposed to be free. Well, guess what? The ntcc has figured out a way to market salvation, and sell it to the masses at a high price, Charge you for extra options, and they've even incorporated financing into their scam. In fact, you are going to be making payments to them for the rest of your life. If you go into the ministry with them and they finance a church building, it doesn't matter how long you pay on it, you will be paying for the rest of your life and those after you will also pay for the rest of their lives. That's why they don't tell you how much is owed on a place.
They expect you all to be stupid and go along with their program, while they get rich right under your noses. Look around you. How many ntcc ministers are doing well financially. Most of you are struggling to get by. Do you really think that Kekel is living a better life for God than you are? Do you really think that God is blessing him more than you because he loves God so much? Kekel doesn't have a monopoly on financial prosperity, but he does in the ntcc. If you believe that Kekel or Olson or any of these common thugs is getting blessed more than you because they love God more than you, than you are exactly where they want you to be. At their service. Yes sir, Yes sir three bags full.
I missed a conference one year and when everyone came back they said the word Pastor- PassTORE. It was kind of funny to me but makes sense with all the mimicking they do.
ReplyDeleteif u had a $400,000 building at 6.5% its about $2500 and if you could refinance at 3.5% it brings it down to $1800. That's a $700 dollar savings! You know how big of a help and pressure that would take off of the pastors and churches? What about those that bought their buildings 10 or 15 years ago at 8 or 10%, their payment could drop $1500 a month. Or instead of taking 30 years it could be paid off in 15 years and be debt free.
ReplyDeleteWhat was even more puzzling was when I or someone would ask about financing our buildings, Pastor would act like he had to talk to a bank or even the board, but then other conversations he would say it was all up to him. It didn't make sense but of course we didn't question it.
Just smile and be thankful, but after a while these questions start adding up.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteI missed a conference one year and when everyone came back they said the word Pastor- PassTORE.
DNA said...
Monkey See, Monkey Do. Sad to say but that's how it is in the ntcc. If you see one monkey do something and you like the result than you mimic them. If you see a monkey do something that gets him jacked up, you do the opposite or you don't do it at all.
Anonymous said:
ReplyDelete"Just smile and be thankful, but after a while these questions start adding up."
DNA said:
It's interesting and this is a great point you brought up. It looks like when the Organization buys property, An overseer swoops in for a visit and takes care of the transaction making sure all the statements go to Graham and that none of the correspondence comes to the local pastor. I'm really not sure what the process is in the ntcc when a Church building or a Servicemen's Home is purchased. I think the local pastor finds the building, but I'm not sure if he has anything to do with the actual transaction. My guess is no. If all of the future decisions are handled above the local Pastor's pay grade, what is to keep them from refinancing that building for half of what the original monthly price was and continue charging the locals the same price?
I'm pretty sure that's why they keep you in the dark and that's why they don't answer your questions. This doesn't surprise me one bit. This is the true character of Kekel and Olson. They are business men not men of God. The fact that nobody knows what they owe on their church building should be enough by itself to help an ntcc pastor realize that this isn't about souls, or God, or helping people or being right with God. This is about a few very rich con artists scamming people for their money. Why the secrets? Why is there no transparency? Most of you Pastors out there are probably burdening your members for twice the amount of what the ntcc pays for the property you rent from them and you don't even know it. How could you?
Just smile and be thankful. When the unanswered questions start adding up, just count it all a blessing that you are a part of the last move of Gawd upon planet earth!
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteAs a pastor in NTCC, I know one of many things that has really bothered me.
Anonymous said,
"I wouldn’t write it here if they would only answer our questions.
When we bought our Church and thankfully NTCC put up the funds, I asked, What is the interest rate? They would not answer me.
They never send us a statement. How will I know when this is paid off? We’ve been paying for years, what is our current status?
Nothing."
Julie says,
This is the way things are in NTCC "The no questions and answers camp". When I was a child my family was in Jennings Louisiana the church building was fully paid off and owned by NTCC yet we still had a big mortgage payment.
Then when we were in Lakewood, Washington NTCC had bought the property there and we were paying the mortgage payments. One day the man that had sold the property came to see that church, that was now using the building and house. He was talking to Ralph St. Clair who was the pastor at the time. He shared how he had given NTCC a good deal since it was going to be used for a church site. They talked back and forth which led Ralph St. Clair to discover that the mortgage payment was double the real mortgage payment. When asking the leaders about it he was told it cost to have the privilege to use one of NTCC's buildings and we are doing you a favor so what are you complaining about if it wasn't for NTCC you would have nothing. As I listened to this exchange between the leaders and Ralph St. Clair I thought we have nothing. What do they mean by what they were saying?
When the flock is being fleeced, that is when the pastor need to do a spiritual gut check.
ReplyDeleteThis is a really good topic. I would like to hear from some former pastors. I know that much of the real estate purchased by the ntcc is bought right out, or gifted with no financing. Would like to know if any former preachers out there had any knowledge of the buildings they purchased. For example, did you ever get or see monthly statements or did they all go to Graham. Did you have anything to do with the purchase process besides selecting the building or other scouting duties? I used to keep the books at several Servicemen's Homes and I never seen any statements, we just sent checks off to the Organization for the rent payments.
ReplyDeleteJulie said:
ReplyDelete"They talked back and forth which led Ralph St. Clair to discover that the mortgage payment was double the real mortgage payment. "
DNA said:
There you have it, from someone who was raised in the ntcc. You have to be pretty blind to ignore this stuff. I know that we were all in the same boat at one time and we all just went along with everything without thinking.
Now we have an ntcc pastor asking the ntcc leadership a simple question and he's not getting any answers. Why would you hide this sort of thing from the people that you have trained to go into the ministry? What's the big mystery? Hey, Kekel, we know you read this blog, how about it? What do you have to hide? What's so hard about answering a simple question? If I was an ntcc minister and I was expected to extract large amounts of money out of the church members, I would want to know how much my mortgage was. Just because Kekel says that your rent payment is this or that doesn't mean that the nonprofit religious kooks aren't scamming you for a few hundred extra bucks.
There have got to be quite a few buildings in the ntcc by now that are completely paid off and have been for a long time. There is nothing wrong with an individual buying a house and renting it out and making money off of it, but when you are a church group that has filed for non-profit status as a religious organization, and you are making a profit off of your real estate, you are a liar. You are robbing God because you are robbing the people of God.
You bunch of Pharisaical hypocrites. You will call a man a God robber if he doesn't pay every penny and then some in tithes and offerings, and then you will lie to the Government by agreeing to all of the rules that govern 501-C religious groups, so you don't have to pay taxes. Then you make profits off of the brethren and live like Kings while they live from paycheck to paycheck. You are the God Robbers. Olson is nothing more than a big time lying hypocrite. He will scold you for stealing a paper clip from work or an ink pen from the Army all the while he is endorsing Kekel and all the ntcc Pastors that have to burden their church members to pay for a building that's already been paid for 3 or 4 times. What's worse is if you ask questions about it, they play stupid and don't give you any answers.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous Pastor wrote...
ReplyDeleteAs a pastor in NTCC, I know one of many things that has really bothered me.
Chief wrote...
If you are still in the NTCC, they know who you are now. They read these blogs all the time and you just gave enough information for them to ID you easily. If you are still in the NTCC, now they don't trust you. I'll also guarantee they didn't trust you once you started asking questions. Dude, you are an outsider now if you still are in the NTCC and you are an untrusted outsider. Trust me. I know how the board works. They are underhanded. You already answered your own questions.
Chief
For the pastor who was trying to find out what was owed on his church, just visit the county website, deeds of trust are a public record, if its deeded to NTCC, then it is unencumbered by a mortgage.
ReplyDeleteEasy to find out.
This is an awesome topic. What a scam... Some of these people are trying hard to get people saved and do right but have been destroyed in the process.
ReplyDeleteJulie you said you were a child when you were in Lakewood. When was that time frame? The reason I ask is I left the Lakewood church last year and the pastor was still press people to give to pay the mortgage so that one day the church could be fully paid and free of debt.
ReplyDeleteReading your comment made me think double payments on a 15 year mortgage it would be paid off in max of 7 1/2 years or 30 year mortgage in 15 years. So I am just wondering how many times the building has been bought by the congregation?
Chief said:
ReplyDelete" You already answered your own questions."
DNA said:
We are glad that this person is waking up, Chief. It is a process that everyone of the ministers in the ntcc will have to go through if they want to free themselves from the cult. I remember when I was in the cult, I refused to believe anything that anyone said that was negative towards the ntcc. I wouldn't even try to put myself in a position to entertain thoughts that would be disparaging toward the ntcc. In fact I was brainwashed so bad, that in the 14 years that I had left the organization, I was afraid to search them online. I thought that anything I found would be a reminder of the judgement I was going to have to face for rejecting them, which I wrongly assumed was rejecting God.
It took someone that I knew and loved to persuade me to take a closer look and the more I looked at it, the more I realized how messed up these people are. Now I was thoroughly brainwashed about as bad as it gets. All the answers were right in front of my face but I chose not open my eyes. I actually went to a conference in Graham, and seen all the money that was spent, and I refused to wake up. As I look back on my 13 years in the ntcc, I can't believe that I was so ignorant. Once you start looking at the blogs and figuring all this stuff out it's hard to trust your own feelings.
The Minister that is waking up is at least acknowledging that stuff is wrong and not only that, he is publicly blogging about it because he knows that they'll probably answer his question, now that it's become a public embarrassment to them. I told him the same thing you did, Chief. He is probably a marked man for coming on this blog. He has since come back and continues to blog about it.
We welcome anyone in the ntcc that wants to blog about stuff like this. This particular subject is exposing the ntcc for something that we already have been talking about for years, but it comes from the perspective of someone who has been in the organization and pastoring a church for a while.
It's also a topic that could wake up other ministers in the ntcc. It's a very corrupt practice to make so much money off of real estate when you are supposed to be a non-profit organization.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteFor the pastor who was trying to find out what was owed on his church, just visit the county website, deeds of trust are a public record, if its deeded to NTCC, then it is unencumbered by a mortgage.
Easy to find out.
DNA said:
That's a good place to start. I'm sure that there are a lot of church buildings in the ntcc that are unencumbered by mortgages and this is relatively easy to find out. All recorded deeds are public information and can be researched usually at the county courthouse. This will probably tell you if there is a lien against a home or church, the date of that lien but perhaps not the terms and length of the loan. That is the info that is being kept from you. If your church is not paid off, the ntcc is probably going to refinance it at the lowest rate possible because as RWD put it, church is nothing more than a business. I've never known the organization to lower the rent. If they do anything, they might raise the rent on the next occupants.
Anonymous said:
ReplyDelete"So I am just wondering how many times the building has been bought by the congregation?"
DNA said:
Herein lies the dilemma. The ntcc rotates it's pastors in and out of the works so often that nobody knows what is going on. The same thing often happens to church members, especially those in Servicemen's Homes. I can pretty much guarantee you that whoever was there when that place was purchased is no longer around.
Most of the offerings taken up are temporary offerings that people take up for specific projects. Once the project is completed they find some other way to get your money. Tithe is paid by everyone so there is no breakdown of how much of their individual tithe money went towards the mortgage.
most places you have to search by county, so whatever county your building is in. for lakewood washington: https://www.google.com/search?q=pierce+county+auditor+parcel+search&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=ubuntu&channel=fs&gws_rd=ssl
ReplyDeleteI know the St. Clairs were there back in 1989 so thats at least 26 years. I dare say that if they received it for a cheap amount as a donation from the seller but to still charge rent is horrible when pastors and members are all struggling.
dna, i suggest you make this a front page article and copy & paste some of the comments so far.
how many other pastors and churches are being harmed? so so sad.
whats even more sad is you are paying the mortgage & then you have to send in 60% of your money for escrow on top of this.
i kept a record of what i had sent in for escrow and i was scolded for keeping track of the amount! They handle it all at headquarters i was told. i would often ask the bank teller what the current balance was, to see if it matched mine. i had heard from friends that when they did that, theres would be empty sometimes or less.
"For the pastor who was trying to find out what was owed on his church, just visit the county website, deeds of trust are a public record, if its deeded to NTCC, then it is unencumbered by a mortgage.
ReplyDeleteEasy to find out."
Not really anon. Sometimes NTCC fronts the whole mortgage then the congregations have to pay the org. back. Doubtful that this info would be on a deed.
Many of us don't want to leave. I realize I am speaking on behalf of others. We have invested our lives. We just want them to change. Be honest with us and with you. We can argue and say that these things didn't happen or don't happen but we ALL know they did and do happen. Thats why many who fought back on factnet and on here, after awhile eventually leave because we realize we are fighting against TRUTH!
ReplyDeleteAs christians, i wish Rev. Kekel and others would just own up and say, Yes, these happened and as christians we are very sorry they happened. Man DOES sin & fail but we ask for Gods GRACE and forgiveness and the forgiveness of those we wronged.
And then many of these policies, change them or drop them. Why add anything to Christ?
So lets say these churches are paid for. The rent then becomes pure income, the tithe becomes pure income.
ReplyDeleteHowever, is the property at all valuable seeing it's such a niche market? It would seem like the Rent, Tithe, and offerings are where the money is at. Selling the building because of a failed work would be less desirable if I'm understanding this thread. Or if it does sell for 500,000K then it's a windfall...
Doggone it. There is so much money to be made.
Don and Ange in answer to your question about pastors invovlement in the purchase of church buildings here is how it went for me and a few others I know.
ReplyDeleteMy wife and I spent hours looking and looking we finally found something with a big area for a sanctuary and everything else that we were told to look for in a church building also a price we thought we could afford since our congregation was new and I knew we had to pay the mortgage. Next I contacted the leaders they came to check it out without me and decided they would buy it. I wasn't allow to be around for the buying process. I was told they might not want to sell it if I was there or want to use my credit and a whole bunch of other excuses. I had excellent credit at the time but I feared to argued because they taught to question the leaders was to disrespect God. So I wasn't present. J. Ashmore, J. Olsen, and another person that was on the board assured me that once the building was paid for it became that individual church's building and Graham would turn over the deed to the building to that church. I thought this is a good plan. The building needed painting and a few other things not anything major and it was listed for 76,000. Once everything was done I was contacted to go out to eat. I thought we were going to go over the paperwork but I was showed nothing. I was told your mortgage payment is 1300.00 a month. I about chocked on the food in my mouth that was nowhere near what I and my wife had planned for in payments. I said Oh there must be something I missed because I thought the payments would be a whole lot less. It was told me that there was more land that was not named on the paper I had, there was insurance, the yearly taxes, and so on. I said we can't afford this. I was then told, "Are you going to doubt like Peter or are you going to keep your eyes on Jesus and walk on water. Matthew 17:20 tells us " And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you." It is all about faith brother all about faith."
That was the last time my credit was excellent. We ended up loosing the house we were renting and I had to move my wife and kids to a very tiny little apartment. My kids were so disappointed because the house had a big basement to play in at night after our long days and the last people had left the backyard set up for kids. My kids had so loved this house. It had made the move to a new place much easier. We were told that God wanted to teach us something that is why we were there. That sometimes God has got to take you to the desert to show you things.
It will be interesting to see if anyone else will share their experience.
Dude you are putting way to much thought into this. Kekel is a crook and so is Olson. You are not going to change them. And even if you did, you simply got used by them so there is no way I'd follow them ever again anyway. Your only choice is to leave. They ruined your credit, messed up the lives of your children and you are just willing to overlook that and let everything be bygones if they'd only fess up? Man they messed over your children and I take that real personal.
ReplyDeleteMess with my little boy and I'll leave it at that. My little boy was one of the main reasons I left the NTCC once everything became clear. Just wish I'd left sooner but it all worked out in the end.
You were the victim of a real deal con artist game if your account is even remotely accurate. They played you. Suckered you. Used you and your children had to pay for your poor judgment and I'm being real. That's my biggest regret about my time in the NTCC. The crap my daughter had to endure. I'll never forgive myself for that.
ReplyDeleteCouldn't agree more, this is turning into front page stuff because in many instances it's verifiable. Aren't you pastors the least bit curious as to how fleeced you're getting?
ReplyDeleteCome on man!!!
Apologize!? Can they start with paying the victims of rape and incest? Stop saying those who allowed those acts were Christian. No repentance before death means hell.
ReplyDeleteAnd then out of the blue they hit you with a $1300 a month mortgage payment and guilt tripped you into feeling it was your responsibility to pay it. They read you like a book. They knew they could manipulate you. You should have told they you weren't paying $1300 a month especially being that they didn't allow you in the business deal. Then they would have been stuck with the building either way and that's assuming that they didn't pay for it in full at the beginning. That story is something else but it never would have worked if you hadn't allowed it to. You need to get your priorities straight and stop being manipulated today and take charge of your life and that of your family.
ReplyDeleteFrom what I gather, there is at least 2 if not 3 different stories going on here. so lets not confuse them. Maybe we should sign them AnonymousX123.
ReplyDeleteTo the one that bought at 76000, WOW, WOW, WOW!!!! I would choke on my food too! 76000 at a 5% rate is $400. There isn't any taxes to be paid since its a non profit. Insurance on a 76000$ building might be 50$.
Add that up and its $450, not $1300!!! That is appalling. $850 more they charged you every month? And it was a new work?
I would think they would help a new work not fleece them. I am so glad I left. I can't even believe this but I really can. Is there any other pastors or people that kept the books in their church that want to chime in? Post as anonymousX123 change the last 3 numbers so we can follow what you are saying.
Signed: Anonymous Glad I left
Total scumbag charlatans and swindlers. I refinanced my place awhile back, and payments (including taxes and insurance) are right around $700 per month on $112K. And if one doubles up on monthly payments, a mortage is paid off far sooner than half it's term, thanks to reverse compounding. They have a scam going all the way to the bank, and are unconscionably ripping off sincere believers. Sociopaths have no sense of empathy and feel no shame over what they do to others. Flee now, before they get another penny--they are exploiters and false brethren. They belong in jail.
ReplyDeleteI have to say that we are living in two different worlds. When were part of the cult, we didn't think the way we do now. There is a process involved when a person decides to leave. I can't honestly say that if I were in that pastors shoes that I would immediately jump ship without thinking things over. There were many things that I ignored as a member of the ntcc. I didn't ignore things because I was stupid or out of my mind. When you decide to give 10% of your money to an organization, there are a lot of people that are going to tell you, you are out of your mind. When you let the ntcc leadership dictate the way that you are going to live all the way down to how you dress, how your kids dress, who you date, who you can talk to, who you can have in your car or house, who you can call on the phone, you are crazy stupid and everything else you want to label it. But we all were there. Such were some of us. That Preacher that's been in for thirty years and is just now figuring all this stuff out is no dumber than Barnes or Ashmore. Those guys might of had bigger churches but they also paid Kekel and Davis a lot more money than many of the other preachers out there. I don't care how people wake up, I just hope they wake up.
ReplyDeleteIf you are a pastor in the ntcc and you are realizing that you have been ripped off, I honestly can't say you are any dumber than I was or anybody else. It's a proven fact that the degree of brainwashing increases when you attend the brain washing center in Graham. The Reeds knew things were wrong for quite some time before they got out, but I have to believe it's hard to get out when you have invested so much into the ntcc. Same with GS/DS. They were in for over 30 years. I was in for 13 years and never went to the brain washing academy but I got to the point where I desired personal freedom to religious bondage. I have no idea what it's like to be a pastor in the ntcc for several decades. Saying all that, I do understand where Chief and others are coming from. I agree that the best thing you can do is leave. The ntcc leadership are filthy and corrupt and if you chose to stay with them it's going to be a nightmare.
If you leave and you care about the people that are in your church, being honest with them about what you know is probably the best policy. I also understand the line of thought that some others have taken. Save money and get your own building. If they know who you are that might not be easy or realistic.
DNA, thanks for understanding. Its easy to say, Just leave. But when all your friends are here, you hope things change. Sadly, the only time they do is when something is posted on the internet, then all of a sudden they get a vision. yeah right.
ReplyDeleteAlso, for many church members, its easy to go along for the ride. But when you are a pastor, and you start finding out some of these things, or start studying the bible and there isn't any biblical proof that supports not wearing necklaces, etc... it begins to gnaw at your conscience because you aren't just going along for the ride but now you have to enforce these rules and they just don't make biblical sense. Saddened
Rather than signing the bottom of your comment as "Anonymous123", you can select the "Comment As" feature that is labeled "Name/URL". Just pick a name for yourself and place it in the "Name" box. You may leave the URL line blank. This will make your screen name of your choice appear at the top of your comment and that name will appear in bold letters; so people will see "Bill said..." rather than seeing " Anonymous said... "
ReplyDeleteThis way each person has a unique name, rather than having 29 people saying "Anonymous said..."
Thank you.
Anonymous said:
ReplyDelete"Don and Ange in answer to your question about pastors invovlement in the purchase of church buildings here is how it went for me and a few others I know."
DNA said:
Thank you for sharing this with us and our readers. I'm thinking you are out of the ntcc from your comment but not totally sure. I asked for people to come on here and share what they went through and I really do appreciate you doing that.
Like I said we all were brainwashed and did things that were not very bright. We went along with things because we were taught not to buck the system. Even if we didn't understand things we did it their way. I hope you got out, because nothing has changed in the ntcc. They are still over charging and they are still getting rich. Like Chief said, it's not Christ-like and we were all taken for a ride.
As much as Davis taught that the church is a business, that seems to be all he cared about. Davis was not a Christian. He might be considered a shrewd business man and we all know he made millions. But for him to make that kind of profit off of one family in the ministry and those that paid tithe in your church is absurd. Not only was he making a profit off of a brother, but he was also lying to the U.S. Government. They might be a non-profit organization on paper but they are definitely raking in the big bucks and lying about their non-profit status.
You people are as dumb as a box of rocks.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said:
ReplyDelete"That story is something else but it never would have worked if you hadn't allowed it to."
DNA said:
Unfortunately that's how cults work. 13 years of my life would have never been wasted if I hadn't allowed the ntcc to influence me. We all feel into the same trap, and that's one of the goals of a cult is to leave you blaming yourself for everything. You wouldn't have a cult if everyone thought for themselves. I agree with your statement, Anonymous, but we all were stranded on the same Island at some point and we all allowed things to happen to us that were wrong. I'm not exempt nor is anyone. I know many X-ers that blame themselves and still allow the fear of what they were taught to govern their lives. Sometimes people will leave one cult and join another because they can't or don't want to figure things out for themselves. They have to follow someone. If you leave the ntcc and join up with Denis or Ashmore you are basically jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire. If you want to end up thoroughly mixed up and brainwashed beyond repair, just join another cult.
The ones that are in the ntcc and are commenting on here are figuring things out. They are openly discussing what they are going through. Perhaps if we give them some time to work through these issues they will do the right thing for their members and themselves. Maybe this is the first place they have been able to go without getting jacked up by someone like Kekel, Davis or Olson. They might answer their own questions and they probably already blame themselves for much of what they have been through. We designed this website so that people would have a place to heal. Not just members but ministers alike. I for one don't want to treat them the same way the ntcc does, but that's just me. We receive ministers after they leave the ntcc and allow them to join our ranks as a voice that speaks out against the ntcc.
I've probably been more critical of the ntcc than anyone out there. I've spoken out against the board members by name and against many of the pastors by name. I've done everything I can to expose the corruption in the ntcc and but we also try to help people whose lives have been broken in a million pieces to realize that it's not God that did this to them. Knowing what I know, and trying to help without tearing anyone down, the only advise I can give you is to find your way out of this cult. It's not going to improve. You have to get control of your own life before you can do anything. You must help yourself before you can help others.
Mat 6:14-15
ReplyDelete"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."
R-dub said:
"I can't remember the last time I sinned"
1 John 1:8
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
All Rdub had to do was remember the last time he said that he couldn't remember the last time he sinned.
DUH said:
ReplyDeleteYou people are dumb as a box of rocks.
DNA said:
For a good laugh click where it says DUH in blue letters.
Growing up in a Jehovah’s Witness family is different. As a child, I didn’t celebrate birthdays, Christmas or July 4. Nor did I, or anyone I knew, mix with non-Witness families in Little League or Girl Scouts. Instead, I spent much of my time sharing the “good news.” I used to go door-to-door on my own with a big, strong, well liked man in my congregation, named Jonathan. I was just 9 and 10 when he repeatedly sexually abused me.
ReplyDeleteIt is really hard for kids to speak up when they’re abused. But the Jehovah’s Witnesses make it a lot harder.
They have a “2 Witness” rule, which says that anyone who accuses an adult of abuse must have a second witness. If there is no second witness, the accuser is punished for a false accusation - usually by ordering that no Witness may talk with or associate with the “false” accuser. This is called dis-fellowshipping. For a kid raised only with other Witnesses, it was horrifying. Even your parents would have to ignore you. It was more terrifying than Jonathan.
This 2 witness rule was used in the ntcc also to hide predators. If you are a child in the ntcc and you are being sexually abused by someone in the ntcc, They will not receive an accusation against the predator from the child or their parents unless there are 2 or 3 witnesses. How often does an individual molest children in front of an audience?
ReplyDeleteThis is off topic and I'm not trying to change the topic but rather tying this in. This is your ntcc. This is how the leaders of the ntcc are treating children who are victims of sexual abuse. When Julie said anything about the abuse she went through the leaders and her parents would treat her like the scum of the earth.
I'm saying this because there are a lot of reasons to leave the ntcc but the ntcc in addition to ripping people off in real estate transactions has a history of it's leaders allegedly raping children and harboring the predators. They would rather let the child suffer than for their reputation to be soiled. Fontenot was harbored by the ntcc while the molested and raped daughter and mother were told by Olsen to find another church (dis-fellowshiped). Fontenot who was allowed to stay in the ntcc was later convicted in a court of law for the same crime, because the mother did the right thing and went to the police. All of the ntcc elders that were told should be in jail with Fontenot right now. This includes Kekel, Olson and Davis who were all told by the mother and hid this from the police. Then when Fontenot got out of jail and was a sex offender he was with another woman who had a daughter close to the same age as Fontenot's daughter and he was breaking his parole by being near a child again. Now he is in jail serving the rest of his sentence. Davis, Kekel and Olson allowed this pervert to be around other peoples children and grand children in the church by not informing anyone of his past and put everyone's children at risk, because they didn't want their reputation to be soiled. Birds of a feather flock together.
This is why we encourage people to leave the ntcc. We didn't make this stuff up. The ntcc leaders are corrupt to the core and they are not in this to see souls saved or to see people go to heaven. They want the proceeds that are generated and some clean fresh faces, and a group of people in 'holiness' apparel to hide their sins. If you join with these people you are enabling them to continue to use yourself and your congregation as a front to hide what the ntcc is really all about.
ReplyDeleteWe have blogged about this stuff endlessly. We hope that you read through this blog and Chief's blog thoroughly so you can see the patterns and the true stories that others have shared. We aren't making this stuff up. We are sharing all of this info in the hope that you will make an educated and informed decision. Whatever decision you make must be your own, and in your time. I would say pray about it, but in our minds there is not a lot to pray about. We are living in a different world than you. We believe in Christianity and we love God and are loved by God, but we believe that the ntcc leadership are hypocrites that are using anyone they can to make money and hide their own sins.
You would be better off having bible studies in your own home. The ntcc wants you to have a building so they can have another endless stream of income. Jesus didn't have buildings he would teach people on the mountain side or in a boat or in a house.
ReplyDeleteDNA said:
Thank you for sharing this with us and our readers. I'm thinking you are out of the ntcc from your comment but not totally sure. I asked for people to come on here and share what they went through and I really do appreciate you doing that.
Anonymous says....
Yes I am out and I really appreciate this blog it is an open door to healing in my family.
Chief I am agree with you it has hurt my kids deeply and I do struggle with guilt. Someone who has been a help to my family is Julie.
Before we left NTCC my wife suffered a mental break-down even was put into a mental hospital for awhile. Emotionally my kids were crushed and no one cared. The leaders threw us away like garbabge. All we had were the therapists for a long time. Last year I was reading the women that had come forward and I thought how brave they were to do so Pam, Lisa, Lori, and Julie. Now this year Ken has come out wow it is amazing what NTCC has hidden. I was drawn to Julie's experiences as she was raised in NTCC and had been a preacher's kid. I began looking for her which wasn't easy. I know both NTCCers and some Xers don't think Julie should have come forward even speak bad about her yet I found a woman with a heart of gold. My wife has healed so much with her kind words. She doesn't make me feel like the worst father and husband. My kids are enjoying life now.
Thank all of you guys for blogging it has helped me so much. You give us things to think about in the healing journey and information we would have never known. Chief I know I have been stupid with the past but I am trying to be smarter with the future thank you for the plain truth.
The Reeds also found out that they were paying for the home in Killeen, TX, after it had been completely paid off. Remember the one with over a quarter million dollar escrow? Yeah, that's the one. Remember how The Reeds needed a few bucks for some minor repairs and the Organization told him to take up an offering. This is how stingy and hypocritical the ntcc leadership is. They were charging them rent for a building that had already been paid off, and which had an Escrow of $270,000, And Davis told him to burden his tithe and home offering paying GI's for the repair money.
ReplyDeleteMatt Reed called DiFrancesco and guess what? The home was paid off. I'm sure the org. leaders did the right thing and reimbursed the Reeds for the over payments. Right? I mean they are Christians aren't they? I think Kekel claims to be a Christian. So you be the judge. Put yourself in Olson and Kekel's shoes. If you are a tax exempt leader of a religious organization and you attained that status by agreeing with the IRS that you would follow the rules that go along with you not having to pay taxes, and you don't do the things that they require, What does that make you? Raise your hands if you know the answer. It makes you a liar. And we all know that "All, A double L, all liars shall have their part" where? Can I see a show of hands if you know Rev. 21:8 by heart? That's right folks, according to the leaders in Graham, by their own admonishments they are liars, and they will have their part in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone. Not only are they lied to the IRS but they are lying to many of you ntcc pastors. They are telling you that you owe them a certain amount for your mortgages and you are paying them that amount. If they were able to pay for your building in cash it's because they had the money in reserve that was given to them by tithe payers. If they charge you rent or any kind of payment for that building they are making money off of you. They are basically lying to you. Everything they are raking in is profit. They are not only liars but they are thieves. They steal from the poor so they can live large and have all the nice things that money can buy? Is that Christianity?
The Reeds were actually there 2 different times. The escrow and the over payment of rent might have taken place in two different times they were there. They also were in Junction City and had to pay the Org $500 per mongth for a van. In Japan they had to pay back all of the start up costs for opening that work, and they didn't even open it. I thought that's why we all gave to World Missions. Some times the books would be in the negative because they were so far in debt to the organization and they wouldn't get their draw to have funds to live off of until it was brought back into the positive. That draw I've heard was only $25 to $50 per week. Not sure what they got, but I heard that from others. What a bunch of cheating and swindling thieves. I can't believe we gave so much to them. I was one of the biggest suckers out there. I paid way more than my share of tithes and offerings. I gave to every single cause that came up and kept very little for myself.
ReplyDeleteI would challenge every pastor and worker and church member to find out if their church is paid for. If not, what is the mortgage details? how much was it bought for and what is the agreement? how many years until its paid off, 30 years? 15 years? 10 years? and at what interest rate? If its more than 4% can you refinance it to save the church and even the local pastor and workers money so they aren't struggling so much. find out how much is in your escrow account? you as the pastor have a right to know! you or the previous pastor stood up in front of those people and told them the money that comes in here is going to an account to help us fix up the parking lot, the roof, etc. Be a good steward of Gods money and of Gods people.
ReplyDeleteI find this topic very interesting.The first time I pastored in NTCC this what happened. I was told God wanted in a particular to build a church so I packed up my family and went there. I was under the understanding there wasn't a church there. Within 48 hours I was called and told there was a building with 5 people but it was 3 mos behind in payments to NTCC. The rent was 1550 a month and I had 60 days to have it update. We struggled for a year before we were sent to Graham as a failure. My wife and I began to talk about all after 5 months decided to leave. We were weighed down with guilt until we first read Chief's blog then yours.
ReplyDeleteI can't thank you all enough for giving your time.
I know how hard it is to leave, given that we were isolated from everyone who wasn't "in." We had to struggle hard with the decision, because of the strong conditioning to which we'd been subjected. All those dynamics are still in place, however there is a difference--information. When we left, there was no FACTnet, blogs, etc. We had no idea of the scope of these devils' wrongdoing. Learning about that should make it easier to jump ship, and the malfeasance of the "leadership" has been amply documented online now. This knowledge brings responsibility; act on it. They will never change, and the longer people stay, the more they are enabled in their abusive ways.
ReplyDeleteTHE UNDISPUTED TRUTH
ReplyDelete"Smiling Faces Sometimes"
Smiling faces sometimes pretend to be your friend
Smiling faces show no traces of the evil that lurks within
Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes
They don't tell the truth uh
Smiling faces, smiling faces
Tell lies and I got proof
The truth is in the eyes
Cause the eyes don't lie, amen
Remember a smile is just
A frown turned upside down
My friend let me tell you
Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes
They don't tell the truth, uh
Smiling faces, smiling faces
Tell lies and I got proof
Beware, beware of the handshake
That hides the snake
I'm telling you beware
Beware of the pat on the back
It just might hold you back
Jealousy (jealousy)
Misery (misery)
Envy
I tell you, you can't see behind smiling faces
Smiling faces sometimes they don't tell the truth
Smiling faces, smiling faces
Tell lies and I got proof
Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes
They don't tell the truth
Smiling faces, smiling faces
Tell lies and I got proof
(Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes)
(Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes)
I'm telling you beware, beware of the handshake
That hides the snake
Listen to me now, beware
Beware of that pat on the back
It just might hold you back
Smiling faces, smiling faces sometimes
They don't tell the truth
Smiling faces, smiling faces
Tell lies and I got proof
Your enemy won't do you no harm
Cause you'll know where he's coming from
Don't let the handshake and the smile fool ya
Take my advice I'm only try' to school ya
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteChief I know I have been stupid with the past but I am trying to be smarter with the future thank you for the plain truth.
Chief said...
Thank you. Haven said that, I'm sorry for being rather heartless sometimes. Sometimes I can be overly insulting when it comes to people who are still in or recently got out of the NTCC. I hope I haven't psychologically hurt anyone with my overly direct approach. I just get so sick of the NTCC and frustrated by the whole thing that I'm sure I can be "too" straight forward. I'm just trying to get people to wake up.
I also take the "in your face" approach to show people that they don't have to be afraid to call the NTCC leadership the scandalous crooks that they are. I call those crooks and hucksters every name I can think of to show people that God won't judge you for calling a spade a spade. There may be record of God judging people in the Bible when they slandered "true" men and women of God but unfortunately these NTCC money grubbing, hypocrite, con artist sorry peace of garbage leaders don't fall in that category. You see now is when I call them out by name. Olson is a swindler, Kekel is a double standard hypocrite, and Davis was all that wrapped up in one ugly, money hungry package.
For the record. I have no problem with people making as much money as humanly possible, but when you do it at an entire churches expense and detriment, and you do it deceitfully you are no more than a scum bag and that's Davis, Kekel and Olson. Guys like Jones, Johnson and Defrancesco are no more than accomplices, yes men and enablers and joint hypocrites in the whole dirty venture.
Chief
Copy and paste or click blue link above: Smiling Faces
ReplyDeleteThe Undisputed Truth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgA2Sn3b6OM
Thanks Vic, Good find.
Be a good steward said:
ReplyDelete"you as the pastor have a right to know! you or the previous pastor stood up in front of those people and told them the money that comes in here is going to an account to help us fix up the parking lot, the roof, etc. Be a good steward of Gods money and of Gods people."
DNA said:
If you are in the ntcc you are really in between a rock and a hard place. They expect you to set aside for so many things and they tell you to add another service so that you can take up another offering. I don't care if you have 3 services a day for the rest of your lives, you can't squeeze blood out of a turnip. You are really in a pickle if you are trying to get a small congregation to pay for all the expenses. It's not fair to you and it's not fair to them.
My biggest problem with this is that people are getting rich off of it. If it were really all going towards souls and people were getting saved, there would be enough people to spread the wealth around a bit. The ntcc can not keep souls. Jesus kept 11 out of 12. The ntcc keeps probably 1 out of one hundred and that's a conservative estimate. If the ntcc were doing things right, people would stay. The sad truth is that most people see the warning signs and have enough sense to stay away. Just to find one person that will stay for about 10 years, you have to go through close to 1,000 people. The ntcc has been around for almost 5 decades and there are only about 5,000 people in the organization and that's a very generous number. It's probably closer to half of that.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteLooking back I am so glad I left ntcc and did not become a minister with them. I would feel terrible (as I'm sure a lot of former ntcc pastors do) if I had preached and enforced the screwed up teachings that they have always forced on people. The short time I was in the bible college I remember a brother talking about a time when he "got to' work on Kekel's new house. He was carrying some stuff through the house and bumped the painted wall made a loud noise. He said MK came running in there and tore into him. Kekel should have said " Don't worry about it brother, its your dime paying for this place to begin with not to mention you are here working for free with what extremely little free time you have while in bible college!"
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said:
ReplyDelete"Kekel should have said " Don't worry about it brother, its your dime paying for this place to begin with not to mention you are here working for free with what extremely little free time you have while in bible college!"
DNA said:
That is how a normal Christian would have handled it. That's such a fine example of Christ like behavior. First of all, in bible school you have little time to yourself and if you are spending it working on Kekel's mansion, you are probably too tired to work safely. Every dime of money that went into Kekel's mansion was paid for by tithe and offerings. I don't care if Kekel has investments, he was a bolo on all accounts, and if he made money through investments it's because he was being supported by tithe payers and had that money to invest because of tithe payers.
Kekel is nothing more than a leach on the body of Christ. He is where he is because all of us brainwashed tithe paying docile believers gave our money to him. We enabled Kekel to treat people the way he treated that brother. He was using that guy for free labor and got bent out of shape because he accidentally scratched a wall. Big deal. Have one of you building crew members fix it for free. Most of the building crew members are making 1/4th of what they could make on a real job, but they have chosen to serve Kekel. Who profits off of this? Not the local pastors who are being over charged for their mortgages so kekel can continue to build on to his mansions. Kekel is in it for Kekel and Tanya, not Christ. He's a thief. No better than Judas. Kekel has betrayed God's people and thereby he has betrayed God.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI do think that it's hard for us to relate to someone who has been in the ministry for a long time. I often feel like the solution is simple and don't understand why it is so hard for an ntcc pastor to see things the way that many of us do. I have to take my foot off the gas pedal and downshift sometimes because I think that many of the ministers, (not all of them), are pretty decent people but they are in a messed up situation. They've invested their lives into the ntcc, and they also care about their current congregations. They have figured out much of what we have figured out, but it's still a difficult choice. Not everyone can put it together financially to split from the ntcc. They feel that the ministry is a calling and that if they leave the ntcc, they'll have to start from square one with no ministers license, no recommendations, no accredited college experience, no money, no friends, no career and nothing to fall back on.
ReplyDeleteI do feel like there are a large number of pastors in the ntcc that are in it for all the wrong reasons. Some are wanting the power and money. Some want to be promoted to a board position so they can be just like Kekel or Davis. Many are heartless towards their church members, and we all have seen this. Ntcc'rs and X-ers alike have watched this happen or it has happened to them.
Many of us feel that there is no hope for the ntcc unless you can get rid of the entire General and/or Executive board and replace them with people that care about souls and would discontinue all of the false teachings that are in place to make the leaders rich and to cover their own filth and corruption. I don't see Kekel, Olson or any of those thugs changing and it's hard to believe that they will ever be removed. As long as they stay in place it seems completely hopeless for any pastor in the ntcc to be successful in anyway that matters.
Chief said:
ReplyDelete"Sometimes I can be overly insulting when it comes to people who are still in or recently got out of the NTCC."
DNA said,
What you say, what you have said, and the way you say it is needful. It's true and it's straight up. Most of the ministers in the ntcc have pretty thick skin anyway. They are taught to anyway. The ntcc are straight up with them, (I mean as far as getting their point across to them, they don't care if they offend anyone), and your approach is most likely the best approach to get their attention. I think many of them have been reading the blogs for a while and this stuff is familiar to them.
I make exceptions every once in a while because I want people to open up on here. I feel the same way you do, and agree with you frequently. I absolutely agree with you on everything you said on this blog post and didn't mean to undermine anything you said. I know my comments might of seemed like they were opposing your comments, but my intention was just to lighten things up a little.
AnonMIKE
ReplyDeleteThis subject really touched off a storm.
Thank you for all the great info. What's being done here cannot be undone and that's great.
Sean said: .The first time I pastored in NTCC this what happened. I was told God wanted in a particular to build a church so I packed up my family and went there. I was under the understanding there wasn't a church there. Within 48 hours I was called and told there was a building with 5 people but it was 3 mos behind in payments to NTCC. The rent was 1550 a month and I had 60 days to have it update. We struggled for a year before we were sent to Graham as a failure..then left.
ReplyDeleteSean, I was in NTCC and pastored as well many days ago. I am sorry to hear your story, yet among pastors, we all heard & knew or were part of SIMILAR stories. I'd see friends with 2-4 kids get up and leave and go across country. They later told me, they weren't told what the church was like, they were told not to tell anyone where they were going (least they find out some bad news from someone else and not go), only to get there and it be in shambles as you said.
BUT THE SADDEST PART WAS: These buildings were paid in cash by the org and we were just paying them back. So if someone before you failed and missed 3 payments, $4500 was due,you were told, and i've heard similar stories before, why is it your responsibility to cough up that money or even raise it and put undue hardship on the 5 people that stayed faithful thru such a tragedy!
Not to mention the stress your wife and children are now going thru, with going to a new place. Plus now dad is stressed because with 5 people he has to pay $1550 not counting utilities and 60/40 escrow, etc... Then they wonder why marriages fail and kids rebel. And with all this stress, you work even harder and spend LESS time with your family.
If you lose your family, ITS NOT WORTH IT! Jesus does not condone such idiocy.
Even chase bank, when a mortgage is faltering, they will forgive the past 3 or 6 months and start afresh.
To any future ntcc pastors, i would leave. there are great churches out there, you can't see because you are still stuck there. but when you leave, your eyes will open and many people go on in the ministry and prosper.
But if you do decide to stay, don't stress about the mortgage. I had another friend, similar situation, he just didn't budge and didn't pay the rent for 1-2 years, and they threatened him & he kindly said he was doing his best. Whats the worse they can do, is send you back? He is still in the same place with a nice church building. Hardly any people. They didn't move him because as we know, there isn't much people to move around anymore. Many are leaving.
Especially with the ashmore's now gone. He was one of the only ones that really did follow the bible, as far as praying for the sick at an altar call & salvations.
This church isn't about God it's about Greed, there is very little Christianity seen there. Just a lot of fakeness and no genuine Christian values. I attended Graham for 15 years, I learned more about being a Christian since leaving that cult...
ReplyDeleteChief I wasn't insulted by anything you have said. I was just thanking you for putting things plain and for helping me not be stupid anymore. Your blog has been so helpful as well as this blog. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteWhat Anon said was true. I wasn't bothered by anything anyone said unless of course they start preaching at me and I have no tolerance for that mess. I just realize that sometimes I feel I go too far with the "in your face" approach. At least where NTCC church members and some ministers are concerned. Sometimes I feel that I act like I've forgotten that I was brainwashed just like everyone else. For the record, I haven't forgotten. I was just as nasty as the rest of them for a while and I deeply regret it. I caused pain to my own family with that sorry sad NTCC judgmental false prophet approach. I was a jerk just like the rest of them.
ReplyDeleteI do understand why so many NTCC people act like they do and I don't totally fault them for it.
The only problem I have is that back in the day we """DIDN'T""" even remotely have access to anywhere near the volume of information about the NTCC and it's leaders that we do now. That's what gets me. The NTCC leadership used to be quite effective at keeping it's congregates and other ministers in the dark about all their crooked evil deeds but because of the internet, now they can't.
So to me, in many respects, the only way you can currently happily continue with the NTCC is if you willfully turn a blind eye to all the hypocrisy. Some of it just is so obvious now in my opinion. But you know what, my parents would have said the same thing to me far before the internet was ever available and that's why I think I'm too judgmental and overly critical sometimes.
Haven said all that, if you read my blog and this blog and you don't "AT LEAST" question the intent of the NTCC leadership, you are really quite brainwashed and that's not meant to be an insult. The word brainwashed exists for a reason. It's because there are people who are, and you might want to consider that you could be one of them. I've never personally met anyone who I knew was as crooked as the leaders of the NTCC. Olson is at the top of the list and Kekel is right there with him. Straight up real deal conniving crooks and if you are in the New Testament Christian Church that is who is in charge of "YOUR" church. There is no way I'd stay part of an organization like that unless I had decided to be a crook right along with them.
Chief
There will always be NTCC type organizations because there are too many trusting people with personalities like I had. I was 18 years old when I became apart of this group. When I began to question the motives of the leaders of NTCC I really didn't want to believe I was that naive to be taken advantage of. I believed Christians told the truth and Loved God. they only wanted the best for me. It was a rude awakening for me. All human beings have the potential of being taken advantage of, especially if they refuse to question authority. That's what make soldiers a key group to indoctrinate. We followed rules and respected authority even if we disagreed. I don't believe NTCC could survive without military men and women. I wish I could be outside every base to warn young, trusting GI's to steer clear.
ReplyDeleteToday's Topic: Usury
ReplyDeleteMerriam Webster defines usery as:
"the lending of money with an interest charge for its use; especially : the lending of money at exorbitant interest rates"
Let me see if I can think of an example. Thinking......Thinking....Thinking really hard......Oh I know, lets talk about usury in the ntcc and let us see what the bible says about it. The first definition is just plain interest. Stongs defines usury as plain interest also. But we are going to go out on a limb and use the second definition: "the lending of money at exorbitant interest rates".
Let's see, I'd say that the preacher that testified that he had a building financed for $76,000.00 which translated to a $1,300.00 per month payment qualifies as exorbitant. If you were to take out a 30 year loan $76,000 at, lets say, 20.5% interest, your payments for 30 years would be $1,301.26 and if per chance they stopped charging payments at the 30 year mark, they would have collected.....drum roll please.........$468,452.72. On the other hand if the ntcc charged you say only 7% interest your payments would be $1,295.72 for a period of 6 years (72 months) and it would be paid off at a total of $93,292.16 or if they were to not charge usury you would be paid off in 5 years at $1,269.89 per month for a total of $76,000.00.
Lev. 25:36-37 Talking about a brother that is poor: "Take thou no usury of him, or increase: but fear thy God; that thy brother may live with thee. Thou shalt not give him thy money upon usury, nor lend him thy victuals for increase."
Nehemiah Jacked up the rulers and nobles for exacting usury on the brethren.
Neh. 5:7,10 "Then I consulted with myself, and I rebuked the nobles, and the rulers, and said unto them, Ye exact usury, every one of his brother. And I set a great assembly against them.
I likewise, and my brethren, and my servants, might exact of them money and corn: I pray you, let us leave off this usury."
Ezekiel condemns the practice of usury
Eze. 22:12 "In thee have they taken gifts to shed blood; thou hast taken usury and increase, and thou hast greedily gained of thy neighbours by extortion, and hast forgotten me, saith the Lord GOD."
and
Eze. 18:13 "Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him."
I would say that many of the preachers in the ntcc, qualify as poor. Since the ntcc has carried tithe over from the Old Testament and used the Old Testament scriptures (out of context) to condemn those who don't pay tithe in the New Testament, It's only fair to take usury from the Old Testament (in context) to expose the ntcc who claim to be New Testament Christians.
ReplyDeleteIn our first reading, if you want you can follow along in your bibles, I won't jack you up for flipping through your bibles during a Sunday morning service, but we find that if you read a little further God condemned the practice of making your brother a bond servant or a slave. They could be made a servant for hire which means if you were to be a rich brother and you wanted a poor brother to clean your mansion, you would have to pay them. Don't get mad at me, I'm just the messenger, can I get an Amen?
The ntcc treats the brethren like slaves that according to Tanya have weak minds and strong backs, and these brethren are living below the poverty line in many cases. When you consider what is left of to live on after they pay all of their money to the ntcc, most of them are poor enough to qualify for food stamps, and this is how they are treated. You be the judge. Is the ntcc treating the brethren like bond servants or hired servants? Shouldn't the ntcc leaders be "servants" of all instead of making millions of dollars on usury?
Open your eyes ntcc ministers, and take a close look at how you and your congregations are being treated. You are financial money making machines for them and that is all. If you find your way into their graces it's because you produced money and numbers, but you will never do anything to benefit your own congregation as long as you are a slave to Kekel and Olson. They will continue to get filthy rich while you have nothing to show for your decades of service and your congregations are fleeced by the wicked for money that they could have used to support their families and prepare for their futures.
Mean while, every Sunday, you will be singing in a monotone voice,
ReplyDeleteI must run on, In this Christian race,
I must run on, Until I see God's face,
I must run on, and pay them twice as much rent,
I must run on, till all my money is spent,
I must run on, Through the storm and the rain,
I must run on, Though in sorrow and pain,
I must run on, or I'll run out of time,
I must run on, till I give my last dime,
I must run on, Though I lose my best friend,
I must run on, I know I'll win in the end,
I must run on, till my Pastor gets rich,
I must run on, till I'm led into a ditch.
Tony R. said:
ReplyDelete"That's what make soldiers a key group to indoctrinate. We followed rules and respected authority even if we disagreed. I don't believe NTCC could survive without military men and women."
DNA said:
You make a very good point. If it were not for gullible GI's, (I was one of them), the ntcc would have to fold up it's tents and take their circus to the civilian population. Civilians are either too poor to build a church the way the ntcc wants it built, or they are too educated to fall for their scam. Civilians in many cases don't have the discipline to do what they are told without thinking.
They took advantage of this character trait that many GI's have and they used the fear of hell to persuade so many that they needed to obey without thinking. We were willing to give and willing to share and willing to love so we just turned off our brains, like so many others and allowed them to exploit us for their own personal gain. This is why they are rich and this is why they continue. As long as people stay in the dark, like mushrooms, ask no questions, make no waves and go along with all of their schemes they will continue to prosper while everyone else pays for it in their own suffering. The ntcc leaders are stealing the futures of many people, getting rich off of Usury, lying and cheating people out of their hard earned money, and fairing rather sumptuously.
That's why it is so hard for many of us that our out to understand why people want to stay in. We've figured this stuff out and we know without a doubt that it's wrong. We know that the ntcc is a big money making scam and we have a hard time understanding why people hang around. They'll never change. They are running the same scam now that they were for the last 4 1/2 decades. Don't expect them to get better, but only worse. Airborn, Tony R.
I keep hearing how the Kekels have benefited from all this money. How are the other big wigs doing? Olson? Johnson? Are they set up for life?
ReplyDeleteIs there anymore information on this blog post and the preacher?
ReplyDeleteANON MIKE
ReplyDeleteKeep it up D/A, people are waking up. I have to believe it. Even if they leave for Ashmore's new church or Denis' church, leaving makes it easier to leave again. People fall out of Denis church all the time. Eventually they'll be to much on the internet to hide from. I'd love to see a 60 minutes expose on a large cult taking advantage of military solders. That could be the last straw for Commanding Generals.
Right now it doesn't even matter to me that Kekel has Millions and will always be loaded. The fact they have to fight on several fronts has got to be making it miserable on them. All the questions that keep coming to them must be driving them Crazy!!!
Why did Ashmore leave? why are their websites with 100's of stories about rape, incest, abuse, misconduct? Why am I always poor? Why am I paying rent on a building you've had for 20 years?
Burn it down D/A! Burn it to the ground!