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| This Model shows how all of the thousands of ntcc brain washed suckers at the bottom losing their money while only 39 Hood winking hucksters at the top are making money. Does this look representative of Christianity in the bible, or does this look like a religious pyramid scam found in organizations like the ntcc? |
This is how it works:
1. People are introduced not to a line of products, but to a business opportunity.
In the ntcc the product is Jesus. The soul winner in the ntcc invites people to church.
2. MLM people are taught to get people to come to meetings where someone more successful, that benefits from all of your business success will be able to share the business in a much more polished fashion than you would be able to.
1 Cor 1:21 "it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." In the ntcc, only a bible school trained and licensed minister is considered qualified as the preacher. Hez. 1:1 "Any thing with two heads is a freak". Ntcc soul snatchers are taught to get them out to church. If you bring them out to church you will get praised and that is your blessing. The preacher will ultimately get another tithe payer out of the deal. The ntcc will get another stream of income.
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| These three suckers are carrying their tithe to church. If they each can win 3 more suckers who will do the same thing, they will create multiple streams of income and maybe they can be a blessing to their pastor so he can be a full time ntcc Huckster. |
3. New MLM associates are love bombed with video's of other people who have prospered and worked their way up the pyramid. They tell you that if you work hard you will one day you will have the same things that the MLM leaders have. But while you are on the bottom row of Pyramid blocks, you are doing the most work and supporting the most weight, with the least amount of reward.
In the ntcc, you are also promised a blessing, if you work and give your time, labor and money to the Lord, you will be blessed just like the ones who drive recreational vehicles all over the U.S. on your dime. You will be just like the ones in Graham who live in Mansions and drive in expensive sports cars while the bible school students eat Ramen and bologna for supper. However, it doesn't matter how many people you bring to church, you are still on that bottom row. You are doing the work and you are getting paid the least. You have to become just like the money grubbing hypocrites in Graham if expect to have any level of success at all. You have to oppress people, and you have to do it the way they teach you to do it.
Inside Edition Investigates TV Preachers Living Like Rock Stars On YouTube
4. MLM corporations use a practice called duplication, to get the best results. They want everyone doing things the exact same way, the proven way, the way that earns the most profit. One of the basic requirement's of all consultants is that they purchase a certain amount of the products being sold so they can see for themselves how miraculous those products are. The amount of product required is usually $1,000.00 or more in some cases and/or "autoship" which is an agreement to purchase at least $100.00 worth of their product every month, of course they get their retail discount. To be a successful sales consultant you will have to get a lot of people to sign up for what you signed up for.
Sound a little familiar? There is always a catch. In the ntcc it's tithes and offerings and living in the servicemen's home and going to ntccbs. Nothings free in life, including Jesus. If you want a relationship with Christ in the ntcc, you are going to pay for it. You will pay tithe, give in offerings, live in the home, (if you want to go to bible school and get to the next level), give to all the world missions funds, give to the escrow fund, give to the budget offerings, give to the revival preachers, give to everyone and then if you have any money left, it truly is a miracle. To be a successful soul winner you have to get others to go along with the whole scam, not just the free salvation. Getting people saved is not the same as getting people to commit financially to the ntcc. With Jesus there were no financial strings attached. The ntcc will not accept you as a Christian based only your confession of sins to God or repentance and newness of life. If you do not pay your tithe you will not be treated as a Christian, and you will never get out of the bottom row of blocks on the pyramid.
Just Ask -- Pyramid Scheme on YouTube
5. No matter how many sales you get or how many associates you convince to join your MLM team, you still need to meet the minimum requirements to get out of that bottom row on the pyramid. You have to have a certain amount of product sales, and you have to have 3 distributors under you that each have 3 distributors of their own. It varys from scheme to scheme and from scam to scam. When you do finally get out of the bottom row, you learn that there is very little difference between the bottom row and the second from the bottom row, just one less block. Now that you have been promoted to a "Silver" distributor, you have an obligation to keep the same level of product sales and the same participation in autoship and the distributors below you are required to keep performing at the same level. You are now making about $500 per month and you need to go up the pyramid two or three more blocks before you can become a full time con artist, (oops, I meant to say consultant).
In the ntcc you are on the bottom row until you start producing money and numbers. Before you can get out of the bottom row of the pyramid, you must go to the ntcc brain washing center in Graham where you will live in poverty for a couple years while you "put it together" to go out into the ministry. When you complete the ntcc bs you will be given a piece of paper that says you are a trained and qualified minister in the ntcc, but piece of paper is only recognized in the ntcc and you still are on the bottom row until you go somewhere and produce enough money and numbers to become full time. Somewhere along the line in this process the gift of Salvation has been replaced my many years of poverty and required giving. Once you get a taste for full time ministering, you begin to notice that the ones at the very top of the pyramid aren't doing much work at all, yet they are living in Mansions and enjoying the finer things in life. At this point you have a choice to believe that those at the top are just blessed because they sacrificed more and that one day you can be just like them, sitting back and taking it easy while others do all the work. If you had freedom in your mind you would see it for what it is, but because you have been trained under strict mind control and are too afraid of judgment and filled with man imposed guilt, you will no doubt believe a lie and continue to live the lie.
The truth is, you have a better chance to make it to the top in an MLM scheme than you do in the ntcc. The ntcc is a family owned and operated business. They sell a product called Jesus and that is all he is to them, a product. The program they use to sell you Jesus is called Soul Winning, but they are not just looking for people who will get saved, they want a full commitment out of you that involves paying them a whole lot of money, dressing a certain way, relinquishing control of your ability to make your own relationship choices and allowing them to defile the only true instructions we have that define Christianity. Jesus didn't offer a pyramid scheme. He sent his disciples out by 2's and they were given the same power that Jesus had. They weren't told to go out and invite people to church, they were told to preach the gospel and to heal the sick and cast out devils. Jesus shared the all of his power with those loved Him and he didn't charge them a dime for it.
123 comments:
In the first video it shows Kenneth Copeland who carries on a lot like Davis in his pulpit mannerisms, stomping around and grunting like a Walrus that just won a fight with a Sea Elephant. Copeland lives in an 18,000 square foot house that cost his cult members $6,000,000.00, and flies around in a jet that cost $20,000,000.00 and owns his own collection of jets and antique planes that were purchased by his supporters all in the churches name so he doesn't have to pay taxes and keeps them all at his own airport also paid for by his brainwashed following minions.
How rich does Kekel have to get before you ntcc'rs open your eyes. He has upgraded mansions 3 times and probably has plans to connect his house with Davis's house which will make it a Multimillion Dollar Estate. Kekel is no different than Kenneth Copeland. He has an insatiable desire to extract money from people. He doesn't care how poor the givers are or how much others sacrifice so he too can also live like a Rock Star.
People like Kekel are an example of contrast to how Jesus lived. Kekel is the opposite of Jesus as much as the devil is the opposite of Jesus. When will people wake up? Kekel is not a Christian. Kekel is a con artist who has convinced quite a few people to enslave themselves in bondage to man made doctrine which is taught as God's commandments.
The Religious hypocrites asked Jesus why don't your disciples follow the traditions of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?
Jesus answered them according to scripture saying, "Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Mark 7
I'm sure people held the Pharisees in high esteem as they got rich off of being professional religious hucksters. Jesus didn't even give them the time of day but rebuked them, calling them Hypocrites. He called people like Kekel hypocrites and vipers because they esteemed the traditions of men more highly than they did the word of God. Do you really think Kekel is satisfied with the riches he has right now? Any thing you give to the ntcc is going to be funneled up to Kekel and you and your congregants are going to be financing more extravagant ammenities for Kekel, Tanya and Grant. Are you ntcc'rs really naive enough to believe that your money is going towards anything else?
Even if you are not called into the ministry at all you are still talked into going by preachers and some members.
I can say a lot here but I will remain quiet. A lot of this is what I observed as well. Pray for those of us who are still in NTCC for over a decade and are in the process of leaving. I am transitioning slowly while trying to keep my marriage in tact so please keep us on prayers. Slowly but surely. Others still lurk on here so I won't say too much.
That's what I observed too. I'm trying to refrain of saying this but it seems like they "con" u to go to bible school. I say what I've actually seen and experienced not what people say.
I have to say I've seen this happened. I though God called people and not man.
Anonymous said
"Others still lurk on here so I won't say too much."
DNA said:
This is true, there are many who lurk and some who troll. Kekel reads the blogs so he can get out ahead of things that are said and do damage control. We've seen direct evidence of it in the past, when we've posted things. A good example would be the death of Ralph St. Clair. There was absolutely no public info about it anywhere in the ntcc, and people were having to find out about it on our blog. A few days later Olson posted a damage control statement on his blog talking about how Ralph had been promoted. There was no fanfare and no "celebration of life" events for Ralph like there was for Davis.
If you post too much information, even if it's done anonymously, there are people who watch this blog and word can get back. We would suggest that if you are in a position where you don't want your identity revealed that you don't post any comments with information that links the story to you or whoever you are trying to protect. We have been careful with information that has been shared with us in the past. We do not want to betray anyone's confidence.
Saying that, it sometimes is not a good thing, because hiding the truth enables the abuse to continue. People know things and they don't want to share it because they are worried about outing themselves or they think it will adversely effect their relationship with someone who is in the ntcc, like a relative. If you are in the ntcc and you know that abuse is taking place, you should go straight to the police. Don't talk to a degenerate like Kekel or Olson who only want to protect themselves for being accomplices. If you choose to keep it inside and you do nothing, then you endanger people who might be future victims.
Blogging about things that happened many years ago is a way to expose individual behavior and other types of criminal activity and it raises awareness. If you really want to stop something that is happening right now, first go to the police and report it. If its physical or sexual abuse of any type, more than likely they perpetrator is a habitual offender and after they have abused one person they get a taste for it and it never stops. I know in a cult that it is difficult. Fontenot's X-wife is the only person who went to the police in a timely fashion and because she did the right thing the perverted sexual offender has been removed from being a public threat. Many of the other victims were children or teens and they were raised in this corruption. Keep your eyes open and your children protected. Don't leave them alone.
Anonymous wrote:
"I am transitioning slowly while trying to keep my marriage intact."
Anon said,
realise that you are not alone.
Don and Ange wrote:
"....she did the right thing..."
anon said,
Hope those two girls who were molested by St. Clair sue the church for damages.
I can see from the pyramid model, why some at lower levels start fresh, so that they may, in fact, be at the top of their "new" pyramid. Wow, what a revelation of truth! Can you help me think of some names, who did so? Hmm...
Don, you really zero'd in on something that had really irked me while I was in that "organization". I was seeing this pyramid scheme clearly when L D Jones reprimanded me for bringing a blind, overweight, financially poor girl we were having bible studies with to church. He was disgusted with me and told me to never bring her back. This all happened within the first 60 seconds of her being in the church. Right there at the front door of the Holly Hills church as you walk in and greet the pastor at the door. This is where it happened at. This started a long series of me bumping heads with him in which my head was harder. Time would fail me to tell of the many instances they have showed there true colors to me.
I would like to address those of you who are still in NTCC and viewing this blog. This organization can only do so much for you as far as your walk with God goes. What is happening with you is this: God is developing you to reject an organization that has lost it's way and allow Him to be the rock you lean on. This is where your real spiritual growth will come from. When it is you and Jesus plus nothing else, that is where God is trying to get you. Be careful that you do not lean, trust and bow down to this organization when you know the Holy Spirit is tenderly dealing with you and showing you that you must choose to serve him or this man made org. Look at those who were in 20, 30 and 40 years to finally harken to his voice. Obey and let go of the co-dependence this org wants to enslave you with. You must ask yourself, did it really take God 40 years to talk to a person before they left or was it years of a measure of disobedience to the tender voice you now hear. Don't be fearful of the ministers within the org. and stand up for yourself and family. Do what I did back in 1994, as a pastor of a church I told Mr. Olson and Defranciso that I was not going to pay my tithe until someone answered my questions about why I am paying all this money to the org. and myself and every pastor I knew at that time were very poor and one step from living off the streets. Take whatever lingering question you have and hold them hostage by telling them that for the time being you will be holding on to the tithe. Why do this? because now you will see the monster come out. They will feel offended that you would do that because they think you owe it to them. Watch the black sheep treatment begin and feel the widening gap between you and the brethren as they go behind you and bad mouth you. At that solemn moment you will see the light and want JESUS more than religion, man worship, traditions and a church that has made a business out of and made themselves Lords over God's flock. My name is Bryan David Hill and was in from 1982 til 1994. When I left I got everything from threats that God would kill me, judge me and that they were "fearing for me". I simply resigned and they made me there enemy. They tried to get my wife to leave me and a host of other tactics to try and break me but guess what boys, I'm still alive and I fear God not man. I'm telling you that it is liberating to stand up to these guys, speak from the heart and stand your ground. When they want to cut your legs out from underneath you then you will either man up and stand your ground or give in like the rest of the lifers there. Imagine how hard it would be to leave after 40 yrs which is why so many find it hard even after 20. Hurry!.
Please do not interpret my suggestion to "hurry" as my vote to not move at the pace God would have you move. There is some planning and wisdom needed in the timing. Thank You
Thank you for your inight. I am lady and my spouse and I have been in for way over a decade. Things are looking well and I know God will continue to work through this moment to fully be set free from this system that I've become a slave to. I have a strong marriage I would say and love my spouse dearly. My spouse see and hear my concern and all he does is listened. I continue to remain because I know it will be. I would like to say to others who are reading my note just know you're not alone. I'm here and what's strange is, I knew about these online all this time but would not read because I thought I was sinning. It seem as though you as important as yoir tithe. I wonder how many would preach the gospel for free and wait for God to reward them. I have to remain a Godly wife so I must do all things in wisdom and keep my marriage a joyful one.
Bryan Hill said...
This organization can only do so much for you as far as your walk with God goes.
Chief said...
I know this organization well. I'll take it a huge step further. The NTCC can't do anything for you as far as having any walk with God goes other than teach you what not to do as a Christian. I really believe that. Other than teach you how not to be a Christian, the NTCC serves no spiritual value at all.
I've used this example before. If someone invades your house and rapes your little girl and kills your wife, would you consider them to be any value just because the day before they helped an old lady to cross the street? Triple no!!!
So the NTCC leadership abuses people, breaks up marriages, separates you from your loved ones, cons you out of your money, runs many people into poverty, lies about scriptures like Tit 2:5 and 1 Cor 16:2, teaches that you should deprive your children of their childhoods just to let Grant do the things you were taught no to let your kids do, pastors deliberately humiliate you openly in church and the list goes on and on. So the NTCC is the rapist who helped the old lady cross the street. Whoopty doo. Not impressed at all. No redeemable qualities in my book.
All the NTCC does is run people away from Christianity. They turn people away from Christ.
Bryan Hill said:
" I was seeing this pyramid scheme clearly when L D Jones reprimanded me for bringing a blind, overweight, financially poor girl we were having bible studies with to church."
DNA said:
What is it with the ntcc board members forbidding blind people out to church. Rev. D.A. tried to bring a blind person to conference and was blasted by Davis. I think that they are scared that someone is going to put them on the spot and ask, why can't you lay hands on that blind person and ask God to divinely heal them? He can't have blind people around your church, because they are probably unemployed and don't have enough money to pay tithe and yada-yada-yada. Jones is just like a parrot of Davis. If Davis told Jones to preach against 75 watt light bulbs, Jones would preach it and then go from house to house to make sure nobody had one.
Bryan Hill said:
"Take whatever lingering question you have and hold them hostage by telling them that for the time being you will be holding on to the tithe. Why do this? because now you will see the monster come out."
DNA said:
If you haven't watched the four minute video which is the first of two on this blog post; Watch it and you will see exactly what Bryan is talking about. A reporter asks Kenneth Copeland why he was living such lifestyle of Luxury off of church donations, and He told her, "My lifestyle follows the scripture". Then The bold reporter asked him, "You have a fleet of private jets, why is that necessary? How many private jets do you have?" This is where the monster came out and he pointed at the reporter and said, "That is none of your business"!
Why should people not know where their money is going? If I'm going to give 10% of my income to someone, do I have a right to ask where it is going? Yes I do, and you do also. If you want to see the true colors of M.C. Kekel or Olson or Jones, just ask them about money. Make it personal if you want to see the demons come out of them. Ask Kekel to show you all of his cars, his mansion, all of the furnishings and to open up his books and show you how much money he has. Then ask him, why do you as a minister accept so many donations and live like a rock star while the people who are giving you the money are poor and broke all the time? I promise you, that you will see the darkness of their true souls when you get down to where they are living at.
They won't hesitate to plow your fields and set them on fire or get down to where you are living at, why should they object to a little transparency? It's called hypocrisy. It's called double standards and we have been warning folks about this for quite some time now. I know people are figuring it all out, but many don't know what to do. Do the right thing for you and your family. You bones will be picked clean if you stay in the ntcc. You don't have to leave God, just leave the hypocrites and the double standard liars. You'll be much better off without them.
Don, I am sending this to you for your awareness. I am not sure if you knew that Jack Hyles was probably the biggest influence on Davis and referenced many times back in the 80's by Davis. When it was discovered that he was having a decades long affair with his secretary and that he had funneled over 100K to this woman for a long time a blind eye was the result. When he died, his son in law the pastor. This guy (Jack Schap) was a complete idiot and child molester who is now in prison. He was Hyles choice because he was his son in law. Very many parallels can be seen between Jack Hyles church and R W Davis's church. And the fact Davis spoke so highly of Hyle's is revealing.
There are so many youtube vids and websites on the net, but here are just a few. This is what Davis's heroes did to their organization. It takes some time but well worth the read.
http://www.blessedquietness.com/journal/housechu/hyles-j.htm
http://brucegerencser.net/2015/01/legacy-jack-hyles/
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/hyles/testim.htm
http://www.peoplesworld.org/speaking-up-for-sex-abuse-victims/
I have heard it said that when soul winning, "if they are at bus stop leave them alone because they probably don't have a car" and "if there are sheets for curtains hanging in the window they probably have no money". There is a reason they refer to themselves as an "organization" in which one is a "CEO". Answer-they have made a business out of God's heritage.
Davis used to Plagiarize Hyles material and teach it during conference. I'm sure you remember, Bryan, we seem to have been in the ntcc during the same time frame, if you went to those conferences. Davis would rant, "The spectator has invaded the church. The pew has become a bleacher". That was Hyles, straight up, but Davis acted like it was handed down to him directly from the throne of God. It also does not surprise me and it is very noteworthy about the history of Hyles and other Con Artists that were drawing up blue prints during Davis' pre ntcc years, that he would end up following to the to his own grave. F.J. Dake and the ministries that proceeded him, Hyles and probably many others who were out to make a fortune off of gullible Christians were all observed by Davis prior to him starting the ntcc. They have a lot in common. One of the sick things is that they all seem to have a taste for Adulterous affairs and child molesting. They are birds of a feather.
At some point we might do a blog post about many of the preachers that were around when Davis grew up and prior to him coming into power. I know Hyles, Dake, Davis and others had a lot in common. Davis would speak of them, but he would never mention their sexual perversions. I've seen Davis rail against people in his own congregation for such things but he always held the famous perverts in high enough regard to not mention those things. Jimmy Swaggart was another one of Davis' contemporaries. It was said that Davis cried when Swaggart was exposed for frequenting a prostitute. Why would he cry because of that? Could it be that his own guilty conscience got to him because he was actually guilty of worse offenses than Swaggart?
I have a hard time feeling sorry for people like Swaggart, Bakker, Davis, Kekel or any other perverted individual who has made merchandise off of the people of God. I think it's a shame and I think a lot of people lose faith because of hypocrites like these. Davis was no different and neither is Kekel or Olson. They all have made their millions and in the process good people have been trampled under their feet.
Anonymous said:
"Things are looking well and I know God will continue to work through this moment to fully be set free from this system that I've become a slave to."
DNA said:
We are glad that you are aware of what the ntcc has become. I know that your situation is a difficult one, and I know for a fact that others are going through or have already been through the same hopeless feeling situation. I believe that you are doing the right thing. If you continue to pray for and educate your spouse, one day you both will find your way out. Stay persistent. Continue to read the blogs and learn what we all have learned. Keep your faith, but concentrate you love and prayers on your spouse so that they will know above all that you care about them. Stand firm in what you believe and tell your spouse everything you know about how crooked the ntcc is. You don't have to overwhelm your loved ones all at once, but let them know about the corruption a little at a time.
We know of one Lady who read the blogs a lot. She contacted us and Chief and was encouraged to find her way out. She didn't want to break off her relationship with her husband and just leave, but they were in the ministry, and she had no means to leave and nowhere to go. She kept loving her husband and praying for him. She would share what she knew with him and eventually his eyes were opened and they both left, and are doing great. Best of all, they didn't let the ntcc destroy their relationship with God. They are winners and the ntcc are losers. The ntcc still had them listed on their locator, because the losers didn't want others to know that they had left. We are Winning!
The ntcc is losing more and more ground because they are not doing things right. The ntcc has a history of treating people one way while preaching something entirely different. Their hypocrisy is tearing down all of their strong holds. Their Empire is not built on a solid foundation, therefore they are sinking. Money is not the right foundation.
It may last longer than we would like it to, but right now the ntcc is on the decline. Ashmore has left and many of the old timers are starting to wake up. They know if Ashmore's days were numbered that they will not be far behind them. Some have followed Ashmore out. Others are starting to turn on their brains. It's encouraging to see people use their brains and figure this stuff out for themselves. If you are an old timer in the ntcc, you should have seen the writing on the wall by now. People like Tom Wright and others who have spent the majority of their lives in the ntcc, they are going to continue to drain you until you die. They have no place for you in the new ntcc. Kekel is running his own show now and it doesn't cater to many of those who have been around since the 70's and 80's. If you don't bow down to Kekel, you will be considered a threat to him. Ashmore left because Davis was dead and he became more of a threat to Kekel than anything else.
Brother D. said:
"I can see from the pyramid model, why some at lower levels start fresh, so that they may, in fact, be at the top of their "new" pyramid."
DNA said:
Davis was much smarter than Ashmore, because he got this revelation much quicker and was able to build an organization that could make him independently wealthy by the time he was in his fifties. Many start at the bottom and stay there so long that they get used to everyone stepping on them and it becomes a way of life. Ralph St. Clair never achieved greatness in the ntcc, but he had the goods on others, and was allowed to live out his final miserable years in the ntcc at the bottom of the pyramid.
Denis and Barnes learned their lessons at an age where they can benefit from their cult upbringings. I actually liked Barnes a lot because when I knew him, he actually cared about people and treated them with a lot of respect. He prayed a lot and was his own man. He didn't do everything the way that Davis taught. We had church services that were not opened up with people raising their hands and screaming. He was however influenced by their corruption and tithe and offerings were mandatory. He helped me out personally financially, after he left Korea and I was in a financial bind. I had given a great deal to the ntcc and was a couple hundred dollars short of paying my bills. I called him at home and asked if he could help and he immediately wired some money into my account. That was more than anyone in the ntcc has ever done. Now I've heard that he has changed a lot and people have testified that he is really caught up in the whole money movement. I hope that he changed but from all accounts he was a money grubber at the time of his departure from the ntcc. That is what the ntcc teaches people to be and if you hang around bank robbers long enough, you will eventually become one.
The ntcc creates this dynamic. People get tired of being at the bottom of the pyramid. The ones that learn to build their own pyramid often follow the same pattern as Davis followed. If it's built that way, it is a scam and I can't support it. The Mega church is another model, and it seems be similar but instead of branching out all over the place, everything is centralized so that the controlling money grubber has most of his logistics in one city where he can oversee it without having to travel all over the world. Large congregations bring in a lot of money also and the beneficiaries can oversee it easier when everything is localized.
Anonymous said:
"It seem as though you as important as your tithe."
DNA said:
That is very true in the sense that your importance to the organization hinges on how much tithe you pay, or how much your church pays. When Kekel reports that he is going to 'preach' at a church, it's usually somewhere that he can make money or a vacation spot, where he can spend a week or a few days at a nice resort area. He most recently announced that he preached in St. Louis, which probably brought in quite a few bucks, because it is a large church with many tithe paying slaves. He'll visit places like Florida and Hawaii, where he and Tanya can relax at a resort and spoil themselves while everyone goes soul winning and visits their ATM so they can make a withdrawal and have some cash for Kekel's offering. When Kekel visited Hawaii, it was said that he only attended one church service while he spent about a week there. ***NEWSFLASH*** Kekel was not there to visit you, love you or even to spend his time in fellowship or preaching. He was actually forsaking the assembling of ourselves together because he missed church services so that he and Tanya could enjoy the island life. Who knows what they did while everyone else was in church. Perhaps they laid out on the beach, went swimming with the dolphins had a few glasses of wine with their steak and lobster dinners on your dime, who knows? Maybe a hot stone massage or even something a little more erotic for Mike, while Tanya was out shopping. Who knows? The point is that they were laying up out of church, which is something that the rest of us were not allowed to do. If you are faithful and you don't have a very good excuse for missing a church service or any mandatory function, you will be severely blasted and humiliated for missing church. So if missing church is such a sin, and Hebrews 10:25 is so important that it is used to justify attending 5 services a week for the rest of your lives, what does one do when they lay up out of church? It has to be sin no matter what it is, right? Watching TV, getting a snow cone, going to the beach and checking out all the other lascivious people, no matter what it is, if you are forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, you are placing it above God according to ntcc doctrine and their brain washed interpretation of Hebrews 10:25.
To be honest with you, you are being suckered into spending all that time at church. It isn't making you more spiritual and it isn't helping your family life or your future financial situation. It is draining you of all of your finances and time that you could be spending getting to know and love your children so that when they get to be adults they don't turn into non believers and disqualify you from becoming a bishop, for not being able to control those under your own roof.
Bryan Hill wrote...
Answer-they have made a business out of God's heritage.
Chief wrote...
Indeed. Unfortunately that's not very plain to see by far too many NTCCers.
Jack Hyles was the big model back in the day. In Tillicum, we had to listen to his soul winning record before we could go. It was so lame. Then we had Personal Evangelism I&II in BS. The first was based on Hyles "Lets go Soul Winning," and the second on "All About the Bus Ministry." RW claimed to have gone to Hammond, Indiana to check Hyles' church out and talk to him personally.
I've read up on Hyles and Davis is practically a clone--big ego, secret finances, sexual peccadilloes, control freak, etc. He was attributed with the saying that "if I didn't have anything to preach against, I'd preach against Hershey bars." He knew the power of fear and how it could be marshaled to manipulate sincere people.
Hyles and Davis were a couple of scumbags who thankfully no longer burden the earth or its inhabitants.
I heard one preacher brag that he only kept one brother around( who happened to play an instrument) because he paid good tithe. We all laughed at the time.
Slowly but surely here . I have been sharing with my spouse what I know. I know deep down in my heart that my spouse will sever ties with them. Again, I will be careful on here because I know lurkers are on here bs I don't want to give away much on who I am. I've been in since a little before the Dennis separation. The holy spirit is real. I never understood the secrets but then they we are a family. Do you without secrets from your family? I watched people who was praised for being a good soul winner and their eye opened at some point they leave only to be shunned. What Kind of Christianity is that? Where is the love? If you think they are sinners why shun them? I greet this people who have done no wrong to me. Half the time you don't even know why they leave so why shin them by only one mans account? I never understood how pastor would talk to other mans wife rudely but yet praise their wives. I have witnessed helps wife get talk to like dirt by the pastor and even his wife get snobby with the helps wife. Another things j don't get is. It's my relationship with Christ. Why do I have to get asked where was I on this day or that day? Please don't do that to your members because the last thing you would like to know is things that's a woman's privacy that should not be told to another man in why you were missing. It would be good to also have your wives go out to win souls instead of having her at home and question in other women. We are not stupid. We are smart women see this. the pastors wives must also stay out of other wives business and stop saying " go speak with my husband". Your husband is not Gid so why do I need to speak with him. The conversation at times have nothing to do with your husband. Unbelievable.
how much more money do they need?
Vic said:
"I've read up on Hyles and Davis is practically a clone"
DNA said:
Davis teaching soul winning would be like Danny Devito teaching how to slam dunk a basketball in a 10 foot hoop. He might read about it and might lie about it, but in all honesty, has anyone ever seen Davis do any Soul Winning? Possibly back in the 70's? Brother D has been around as long as anyone, have you ever seen Davis go Soul winning? I'm not saying he hasn't ever and maybe someone out there has seen him participate in organized soul winning but my gut tells me that he's always been a lead by mouth rather than example type guy. Do as I say, not as I do. If I was a cult leader and my primary objective was to get rich off of other people's labor I would do what Davis bragged about doing, MBWA : Management by walking around. That's about all I've ever seen him do. Jesus and all of his disciples except Judas, lived out their lives by example, and people respected them accordingly.
Hyles was probably a big time narcissist also and talked about it a lot, but the way he carries on I wouldn't be surprised if he was all talk and no action. He seemed more like a motivational speaker, having the knowledge to manipulate the masses.
(Slowly but surely here again)I have a question I would like to pose because I have seen this with my own eyes. Better yet, it's a comment. I don't think it's a good thing for a pastor to ask any member where is their tithe. I personally don't see this in the bible but if I missed it someone please help me. If I am a pastor called by God and let say I preach the Gosple. If God employs me why not take them to God in prayer or better yet let him know my needs. I'm the flip side he knows my needs but going in faith is all good. I used to feel so harassed by the constant begging after we ou tithe and give in the offering several times a week. My head has one job so that offering times two and sever dad weekly. I have no problem giving but stop begging. The righteous shouldn't be begging. When you do get money why put guilt trip on is about our purchase whether it be coffee or tea. We pay and whatever money is left is to do what we want to do. It's not necessary to still beg the church money for unnecessary wants. We also have family to care for. To tell us to have faith in giving but you don't have faith to believe God that your church bills would say baffles me. What about people who who really need help with other places preaching the Gosple on very limited resources or none at all. To say we are a self support church is not correct because if a stranger walks up and give you money I'm sure you'll take it. It's that very thing that we should consider people outside of our walls and give back so we can increase. It's more blesses to give than to recieve and that's a part that's missing. Give and it shall be given to you as well. Sell one of your fancy suits and feed a hungry person. It's not important how sharp you look in a suit many reaches the lost without a suit on. Let's not be lovers of ourself and money. Let's not be professional Christians because it's. Turn off. I knew long before Revend Davis passed than people would show their true colors. Please God and you would be th same. Pleasing a man but when that man is out of sight this the real you. I used to see pastor called Graham to say how many ppl we have in church as if a number is why counts. I'm a soul and I'm not a number. Focus on souls and not the wrong thing. Thats part of the reason why I can no longer find myself apart of this.
Anonymous said...
I heard one preacher brag that he only kept one brother around( who happened to play an instrument) because he paid good tithe. We all laughed at the time.
DNA said:
I was that brother. Just kidding. But honestly, I had a really good tithing and giving record. I'm not proud of it now because I threw my money away foolishly, and it really didn't go towards anything worthwhile. If I gave $100,000.00 in the 13 years that I was in the ntcc, (which is a pretty close estimate), and you were to split up that money and funnel it towards where it actually goes, I would say that Davis and Kekel probably got at least $25,000.00 of it. Enough to put Grant through private school, maybe. That figure could be higher or lower. A lot of the tithe and home offering money went into the general fund and was used to pay local bills and support the local church, but a lot of it was tithed to graham through Pastor's tithe and Church tithe. A lot of money went to Graham through World Missions and I'm pretty sure World Missions is just a slush fund, because I've heard of very few ministers getting help from that fund. Escrow funds have gotten a lot of my money, and escrow funds often get zeroed out and God help you if you ask Davis or Kekel what happened to that money. You better be prepared to cast out some serious demons if you want to address that issue with one of them, because they will get nasty with you if you desire to know where your money is going.
Anonymous said:
" I never understood how pastor would talk to other mans wife rudely but yet praise their wives. I have witnessed helps wife get talk to like dirt by the pastor and even his wife get snobby with the helps wife."
DNA said:
In the ntcc you will find some of the most obnoxious people on the planet. The ntcc leaders are very self centered and they are rude beyond human decency. If you confront them about their rudeness they will get even more belligerent and they will look like bobble heads getting ready to explode. They were taught to be this way. Not all of them are like this but they were all following Davis, Olson, Ashmore and Kekel's examples of pride, arrogance with no humility.
Many of us have seen the same things that you speak of where preachers jack up their helpers and their helpers wives. They want to be like Davis and Verna, Kekel and Tanya, and that is why they are so belligerent. The wives of these quacky kooks are just as quacky and just as kooky, but more than everything there is a lack of love. Love would cure all of these evils if they would practice showing love to one another. They are too busy clawing over one another to try to get to the top. What are they really accomplishing?
Anonymous said:
"I have no problem giving but stop begging. The righteous shouldn't be begging."
DNA said:
Very good point. You nailed it with your whole comment. Why would you have to beg and brow beat people to give their tithes anyway? If you are God's minister and they are God's flock, you ought to try reverse tithing and see how that works. Instead of sending your tithe to Graham, talk to your church and say, we've decided to become ministers (servants) instead of hirelings and this week we've notice that one of our faithful church members can't get around because his clutch went out in his car. So instead of sending this money to Graham so Tanya can decide which $400.00 Alpaca scarf she wants to buy at Nordstrom's, we are going to give to the brother who has dedicated his life to God and supported this ministry the whole time he's been here, asking nothing in return. Or how about buying a hundred dollars worth of groceries and giving it to your local homeless shelter? I can promise you that you would be doing families and poor people much more good by dropping off 10 fresh gallons of milk at your local Salvation Army shelter, and those people would be more thankful for not having to drink powdered milk, than Kekel would ever be. He'd use your money to buy ridiculously expensive furnishings for his mansions rather than helping out a hurt and destitute soul. You ought to try that out and see which model God blesses the most.
Anonymous said:
"When you do get money why put guilt trip on is about our purchase whether it be coffee or tea."
DNA said:
Why should you give these creeps 10% of your finances after being hounded by them all week, and then have to answer for how you spend the other 90%? I don't care if I go out and purchase $1,000.00 worth of bubble gum, if you got your 10%, it's absolutely none of your business what the rest is spent on. You ntcc money grubbing hypocrites aren't satisfied until you bleed every dime out of a person's bank account. You want them to give and give until they are constantly financially broke and bankrupt and then you'll kick them while they are down and say it's because you don't know how to manage the 90% that God lets you keep. What a crock of you know what.
(surely but surely) the haoly spirit is real and I am glad the spirit of God opened my eyes to the things I needed to know. Let two or three but if I come to think about it which I have many ppl have been saying th same thing for years. My spouse still attends but as I stated I go along just to keep my marriage intact. I know and I am already seeing things on a bright side. What I discovered lately was that many was missing from this conference. I had someone asks me if I was going ti conference and u didn't even know how to speak to that person because I have many years stop going. I don't see why it's necessary to have to travel to meet God when God is right here. The fact that many will use credit cards to do so baffles me. I personally don't understand why one should go and leave their spouse behind because they can't afford to both go. Last time I check my spouse and I a couple. Love endure and I wil fit my marriage but not for this. Another thing I have to say to my fellow Ntcc brethren that's still in. If you're dating in Ntcc make sure you don't pick up an adulterous Person who wants to remarry. I still see this and no one wants to touch on this subject.
(Surely but surely) you say it's our church when it's time to give but if I ask you questions about the finances I wonder if you would answer. All I have to say is stop begging us money. I realized that this is a platform where most of you come to read so I hope you see this and know that we get tired of the begging. Don't do it because it a turn off. Silver and gold have I none for you so stop. I give so stop begging for more.
Even little things. They prohibit men wearing shorts even if it is below your knee caps but allow women to wear dresses that are a little below their knees which is a guideline for women in the org. Men wearing shorts below their knees is not lascivious. Then you can't call the pastor by his first name or last name by itself unless you want to be jacked up like u committed the unpardonable sin. Preachers breaking rules and covering up their own faults. Little things to big things like that over the years as well as others does add up. It can almost make u insane. I'm only saying what I have seen with my naked eyes and recorded with my ears.
Davis loved the idea of Hyles "Pastor's School" and more than likely plagiarized much of that also. When Jimmy Swaggart fell, Davis called for a prayer meeting among all the ministers for the reason of "I don't want to happen to me what has happened to him". Didn't know what that quite meant but it makes me think that he didn't want to be exposed like Swaggart was.
For those in NTCC who think that God will strike them dead for not paying tithe I have something for you to think about. "And in all things have I kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself" (1Corinthians 11:9). If it was mandatory that you pay tithe then Paul would not have the authority to refuse it like he did in the above scripture. Study it out.
Don't you find it strange that not only did Paul refuse to take money from some churches he also said this: "To this very hour we have gone hungry and thirsting, without even enough clothes to keep us warm. We have been kicked around without homes of our own. We have worked wearily with our hands to earn our living." (1.Cor.4:11-12)
I just recently quit going to a church I liked a lot because the Pastor said these words "You better pay the tithe, it belongs to me, god has given it to me for my support". Well since my spiritual life is not dependent upon a building or what goes on in it, I left without blinking an eye.
2 Corinthians 9:7: "Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart; not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver." This is N.T. giving and not one place do you see the churches capitalizing on the tithing system. So, how about it NTCCer, what is it going to be? the organization (notice I didn't say church) or Jesus. Who do you choose?
RW win any souls, not. The grunts had to devote several hours Saturday to this, of course, there was the mandatory Saturday night "fellowship" meeting at either north side or Southside ntcc... In st Louis in the 1970s
Early 1970s... Ntcc drained our time and resources with the intense weekly schedule. I worked the 3rd shift AND weekends. With activities day and night for ntcc and the BS I was more than exhausted. They could not care less. I drove my small Vega to go fetch soda pop to fill the machine, RW liked Dr pepper
They should have used their vehicle. They had every kind of pledges going, you name it, pews, wall panelling, bus ministry gas... We were drained.
Brother D wrote...
They should have used their vehicle. They had every kind of pledges going, you name it, pews, wall paneling, bus ministry gas... We were drained.
Chief wrote...
And that was going on in the 70s as you stated. Just to think; it was still going on in the 2000s and I'm sure beyond. The cult leader in Atlanta drained you of as much time and resources as he possibly could get out of you. I had to check him a few times when he wanted me and my wife to drive two separate vehicles to church every Sunday and sometimes on other days as well.
I'm glad that abusive %&%#$ existed though. Were it not for him, I might still be in Atlanta, (which thank God I'm not) and I might still be in the NTCC. Man I'm thankful for that Jerk. I never dreamed I'd be thankful for a low down Jerk. I'm like the story of Joseph in the Bible. They threw me in a pit, I got taken into slavery but found favor with a couple Full Colonels, an outstanding Captian (who is now a best friend), a GS14 and an SES on Ft Benning and the rest is history.
My life couldn't be better now. I went from the bottom to the top in 5 short years. I left the NTCC in 2008 and by 2013 I'm was living a dream. I'm not exaggerating one bit. Everything went my way just like Joseph. He worked for Fharoah, and I worked for a Full Colonel and an SES and if you don't know who an SES is, (he or she) is like a General but a civilian. In fact the SES I worked for was the assistant Ft. Benning Commanding General as an SES. Boy life was good from 2010 to 2013, and it just kept getting better. I stood up to that $%&%$ in Atlanta, left the NTCC in Columbus and it was all down hill from there. Now my life is as good as it gets. I mean it's good. In a few years I'll tell my whole testimony. I have my reasons for not doing that now.
I was at the bottom and now I'm at the top. Stick up to those jerks in the NTCC and God just "might" bless you like he blessed me. Who knows what God will do. I know one thing for sure. You are under a curse in the NTCC. I believe that. I'm dead serious. Well now I'm living the American dream with no worries and that's that. Do you want freedom and blessings? Get away from the curse of the NTCC and make sure you stick up to a few NTCC leaders on the way out the door. It will be very rewarding. Stand up for yourself. Give those NTCC guys a piece of your mind, leave them and get on with your life.
Anonymous said:
"I don't see why it's necessary to have to travel to meet God when God is right here."
DNA said:
You are light years ahead of me when I was in. I can't tell you how much money I wasted on those conferences. I went to every one of them and every fellowship meeting for 13 years. Conferences were supposed to be fun. The only good thing about them was that you got to see people that you hadn't seen or talked to in years because we were forbidden to stay in contact. Those ntcc pastors who were drunk on the KoolAid would tell you not to ask about people you hadn't seen, but only to talk about things "if there be any good report", implying that if someone is gone, they must have gone back into sin, becasue why would you leave the ntcc if you were right with God? That is one of the main teachings of the ntcc or any cult. If you leave their cult you are leaving God. The ntcc is a long way from God. In fact, if you want to get closer to God, listen to God. Filter out all of the garbage that the ntcc has taught you and pattern your life after the example given you in the bible. Cut off their money supply and you will in effect cut off their head. Sometimes you have to cut the head off the serpent to keep it from killing you.
Anonymous said:
"Silver and gold have I none for you so stop. I give so stop begging for more."
DNA said:
Giving to these stingy and greedy hypocrites is not being wise with your money. Anyone who has to beg for your money before you give it to them is a beggar or a con artist. You would probably be blessed more if you spent your money helping beggars that are living on the street, more than you would be by giving your money to the ntcc. Here's a noble idea. Try helping your familiy first get out of debt first. Save your money and provide for your family, so that you can have some stability in your own life before giving to someone like Kekel who already has more that 100 families put together in the ntcc. Do you think God wants you to live in poverty from pay check to pay check? Do you think God wants you to be late on your rent so Mike and Tanya can buy their spoiled son a new car for his birthday? The ntcc has lied to you by making you believe your money is required by God to make people like Kekel and Olson rich. They have lied to by telling you that you are condemned if you don't give God His 10%. They are hypocrites and con artists stealing your money.
Anonymous said...
Even little things. They prohibit men wearing shorts even if it is below your knee caps but allow women to wear dresses that are a little below their knees which is a guideline for women in the org. Men wearing shorts below their knees is not lascivious.
DNA said:
You are making some really good points and getting me fired up. I can promise you that they hate it when people that are still in the ntcc are on to them and actively exposing them. You are doing a good job of this and also not letting on who you are. If they found out they would probably try to drive a wedge between you and your spouse.
The whole lascivious doctrine has been amplified and defined by the ntcc to ridiculous levels of hypocrisy and false doctrine. You can't wear ear rings but you can wear diamond pinky rings. What a bunch of stone cold hypocrites. Davis would condemn a woman in bible school for wearing a red bow in her hair, making her stand up while he blasted her and humiliated her, while his own daughter would wear skirts and dresses so tight that it looked like Jello poured into a zip locked bag. What a bunch of low life hypocrites and scoundrels. If that's Christianity, I don't want anything to do with it. Jesus didn't have any time to criticize women or men for what they were wearing, because he was too busy helping people, healing them and teaching them to love one another. The only time Jesus ever spoke about someones clothing was when he warned people to beware of the hypocrites and Pharisees who love to walk around in long robes acting more spiritual than anyone else. Watch out for those snakes and wolves in sheep's clothing who bind heavy burdens upon people like you and me but refuse to lift them with one finger. Watch out for the ntcc leaders, who love to tell other people what to wear, while they make exceptions for their own lascivious families.
Bryan Hill said:
"Didn't know what that quite meant but it makes me think that he didn't want to be exposed like Swaggart was.
DNA said:
You probably hit the nail on the head. He did end up getting exposed quite a few times toward the end of his reign of terror on the blogs. One of the most damning testimonies became public two weeks before he died. The witness of Lisa and Lori, (two witnesses who were destroyed by Davis and Ashmore), were extremely brave and their testimony, however unbelievable was also verified by Lisa's older Sister, Pam (third witness) who also was brave and shared her testimony.
All three of these girls knew each other growing up and were in families that close to Davis and with Davis from the conception of the ntcc. These three girls were just three victims of the ntcc's history that were willing to speak out decades after they were abused. Davis was sexually abusing Pam at the age of 16, while Pam's husband Johnny Jordan (who worked for Davis) raped Pam's younger sister (Lisa) at the age of 14. While Lisa was just 15 and pregnant because of the rape, Davis influenced Lisa's mother, Barbara Norton, to abandon Lisa and her handicapped and special needs brother, Terry, who was also Barbara Norton's son. Davis showed up at Lisa's house on Christmas day with a work crew from bible school and had them remove everything of value from the house, to include the Christmas tree and presents. Davis moved Lisa's mother, (Barbara Norton Warwick) to Graham Washington and also moved Pam and Johnny Jordan to Washington, abandoning a pregnant 15 year old girl and her special needs brother in St. Louis, MO, just to hide and cover up his sin. Lisa had to steal a pack of hot dogs and a bottle of soda, so that her and her brother could have Christmas dinner. Meanwhile Davis dispatched Ashmore to destroy Lisa and her friend Lori who was witness to these things and has testified on our blog to this end.
Ashmore got up behind the pulpit and smeared Lisa and Lori, calling them sluts and whores, so that they would never feel welcome around ntcc members or that they would never be welcome in an ntcc church again. If you wonder why we are not so quick to accept Ashmore into the fold, this is one reason.
This all came out while Davis was still alive and he brought all this down upon himself. This all happened before Jimmy Swaggart died and Davis's sins were much more grievous. So, I'm sure Davis did not want to be exposed back then or ever. People are better off as far away from the ntcc as they can get.
Bryan Hill said:
"(1Corinthians 11:9). If it was mandatory that you pay tithe then Paul would not have the authority to refuse it like he did in the above scripture."
DNA said:
Tithe is nothing more than a big hoax, devised by false prophets to get people to give their money to them so they can become rich without having to work for it. The scriptures that you quoted prove that tithe was not a mandate in which God required people to give 10% cash. Super Spiritual con artists had to do some serious twisting of the scriptures and then they had to place guilt trips on people to get them to pay it faithfully like a bill on every payday.
The ntcc doctrine of tithe is a false doctrine that does not have one New Testament scripture to back it up. To explain the pure absurdity of this doctrine, you have to first carry the Old Testament Law of tithing into the New Testament commandments and attach a heaven or hell ultimatum to it. Then you have to change that law which had nothing to do with giving cash to a preacher so he could live off of it any way he chooses, but rather was 10% of their agricultural increases only to be given to the Levites, who had no possession of land to grow their own crops or raise cattle.
Not only does NTCC tithe doctrine require you to twist scriptures and make up lies but it also requires you to disregard existing scriptures like 1 Cor 9:11, and 2 Cor 4:11-12, that prove that Paul did not receive tithes. If Ntcc tithe doctrine is correct than God would have to send Paul to hell for being a false prophet and from encouraging people to be God robbers and stealing money from God.
The real ones that will have to answer to God for stealing is the hirelings that have lied to God's flock and teach false doctrines to people so they can get their money and spend it any way they please. Preachers that lie to their members and tell them that they have to pay them for the free gift of salvation will have to answer for it, and the ones that get filthy rich will most certainly have to give an account for their greed and lies.
Brother D. Said:
"RW win any souls, not."
DNA said:
Thank you Brother D. for clearing that up. I already was pretty sure that I knew the answer, but some folks will hold your feet to the fire for stating the obvious. I doubt very seriously that Davis ever went soul winning one time since the conception of the ntcc. He has never been a lead by example type of person. He has always been the type of person who says one thing, but lives another.
A two faced individual can deceive quite a few people because they only see the face that he want's them to see. RWD had one set of standards for the rabble to live by and another set of royal standards for his family and close ring of friends to live by. Double standard Hypocrites will always have two faces. The face that his followers choose not to look at is the face that he show's when he is his true self. If you want to see that face then you would've had to bring out the demons inside of him, by asking him about his money. If a person were to ask Davis why he needed a million dollar mansion and why he needed new Cadillacs every year, his true face would be seen. If you were to ask him why he required other people's children to keep standards that Grant was allowed to violate, you would see Davis's true face. The sad thing about it is that Davis always said, "Anything with two heads is a freak". Davis had two heads and two faces and two standards which would change often to suit his own needs.
Brother D. Said:
"I drove my small Vega to go fetch soda pop to fill the machine, RW liked Dr pepper
They should have used their vehicle. They had every kind of pledges going, you name it, pews, wall panelling, bus ministry gas... We were drained."
DNA said:
Good stuff, Brother D. and that's exactly what they were all about. They would use you, your resources, your money, your time, your labor, until they exhausted every ounce of what makes you a human being, until you were completely drained of happiness and joy, and then they would find someone else to do the same. They used so many people to obtain their status and their wealth.
Why put miles on their cars when they could take advantage of others and have them do it for them. Why spend their time and energy doing things when they can influence others to do it for them. Why use their own money which they have been hoarding for decades to pay for things that the church needs when they can take up offerings and extract the money out of people who have next to nothing?
If it looks like the ntcc leaders are getting rich, they are. They have been getting rich for years. They have been scamming you for decades and they will continue to bleed you dry of every ounce of energy, every cent you have, every resource you have and every bit of joy you have as long as you let them.
This is not Christianity. It is nothing more than a big hoax and a huge scam. This is not Jesus, it is people getting rich off of the poor.
Chief said:
"Stick up to those jerks in the NTCC and God just "might" bless you like he blessed me. Who knows what God will do. I know one thing for sure. You are under a curse in the NTCC."
DNA said:
I can attest to the things that Chief has shared. Chief has shared a lot of the things that have happened to him and his family since he left the ntcc and started blogging against them. I would say that much of Chief's life has been nothing short of Miraculous and I'm not exaggerating. I believe that anyone who leaves the ntcc and helps others get out, will also be blessed, not because they are super spiritual, but because they are doing the right thing.
My personal belief is that if you do right by others they will do right by you. The law of sowing and reaping comes into play. If you help people escape from oppression, good things might very well happen to you. I also think that those good things come from God, and I'm happy for Chief or anyone who is blessed in their life for making that stand.
I also think that there is a curse for people who try to live in the ntcc. This curse extends to their families. Your finances will definitely be cursed because they will be taken from you and given to people like Kekel so they can dispurse your money to their families. I don't consider Tanya or Grant to be blessed, at least not by God. They are however blessed by tithe payers and people who follow them. They will always have 100 times more than you have as long as you live under their curse. It's the curse of believing their false tithe doctrine.
As for me, I feel good about all the blessings in my life also. I have not had to con people out of their money to receive them. I have not made a dime off of other peoples suffering, so I can sleep well at night and enjoy the things that we are blessed with. We just received a huge blessing the other day, but I'm not going to be specific about it, other than just say if I was in the ntcc, I wouldn't be able to enjoy such things. I do thank God and believe that everything great in life is a gift including life itself. I'm not ever going to squander my finances by giving them to some ntcc con artist while they get rich.
The only "soul winning" I ever knew RW to pretend to do was Lou Ricketts in St. Louis and Al the barber in Graham. He was hobnobbing with Lou Ricketts when I was in BS; Lou was a banker friend of his who taught him how to flip real estate. It seems like RW just used him, but he would get him to come to church from time to time. Then Lou died, apparently no closer to God than he was before he met RW. In Graham, we were all forbidden to "witness" to Al the barber, because Al was RW's "project." Well, now RW's dead and far as I know, he made no headway with Al either.
I don't know of a single soul RW won himself. There were some, like sisters Cyrus, Duell, and Norton, who were from his old church, but it's doubtful RW was the one who "reached" them. We were all losers for not getting converts, but he certainly wasn't setting any kind of example.
Thanks Vic, that is very revealing. I doubted if Davis ever participated in one organized soul winning event since the conception of the ntcc, and that's probably an accurate assumption although it's not entirely conclusive. From my observations of the handful of times that I've been around him, he never has been a servant of all, nor has he ever participated in required for salvation activities such as soul winning and church attendance. Even in the few prayer meetings I've seen him attend, he usually just sits in a chair with a blank stare on his face as if he were in a parallel universe somewhere.
I personally don't think that he was ever saved from what I've heard, unless he was at some time way before his pre ntcc years. From all accounts the ntcc was started as a money making family enterprise with the label of Christian Full Gospel Holiness church stuck to it for all to see. It seems like he carried a lot of baggage into the ntcc from his stint with the POGs and from that time, he has never lived as a Christian example from all accounts of those who have known what he was all about.
The whole point of this topic is that we were all required to be soul winners and we were beaten down if we failed to live up to the strict standards of Davis. He never lifted a finger to keep those standards himself.
The subject was soul-winning, reminded me of his attitude toward prayer. He was careful not to allow any manifestation to get out of control, but I think he induced cognitive dissonance when, for example he would complain that no one was praying, being quiet, at a so-called sacrificial Friday night 1030pm prayer meeting.
Later he would complain people were praying too loudly, this invoked a kind of doubting oneself. You were to abandon your critical thinking and only follow his pathetic example. But since he kept changing moment to moment, you always had to question your thinking for the "group thought". Cult practice.
Sad how young Military men are recruited from the barracks. I was alone and it was a sad day when someone from NTCC came to my room and invited me to church.. I was like why not. 4 years later I have PTSD. Its been 10 years since i attended the org but I still have all the symptoms. The worst part is that these they use the BIBLE to get you in.. Spiritual Abuse is one of the worst things to happen..
Brother D. Said:
"But since he kept changing moment to moment, you always had to question your thinking for the "group thought". Cult practice."
DNA said:
Davis was a master at psychological manipulation. Kekel is nowhere near as refined, but was schooled enough to make it work on a lot of people. The whole purpose of a cult is to take advantage of people on many different levels. People that were raised as children in a cult are much easier targets then people who joined the cult as adults. There are some cult members who were abused as children and they become targets in the ntcc also.
Davis was a psychological manipulator that would find ways to use people to his advantage. He might use one person for their money. He'd use another for sex. He'd use yet another to destroy a person spiritually. Davis had many ways of knowing people's weaknesses. There was the "This is I" paper, that was equal to a written confession of a person's past sins. There were verbal confessions were individuals would confide in him, looking for help to overcome their past. There were also second and third hand accounts that were brought to Davis by another party who was privy to the knowledge of what they perceived to be sin. Some of these accounts were true and some were false. Davis had eyes and ears everywhere. People would tell him things out of guilt, others would share things thinking that the knowledge would advance their own ambitions. People would get caught others would confess and all this knowledge would go straight to Davis. The only person I ever knew of to keep things from Davis was Pop Gaylord. Even in that one instance when I confided in Pop Gaylord, Davis found out through another channel and the offender was spiritually terminated.
The point is that Davis was in a position of trust and confidence. Davis betrayed that trust and confidence on many occasions and would use personal information to humiliate people and to keep them doing what he wanted them to do. There was a chain of command but almost always things would get back to Davis. Davis got his millions and lived a long life without ever getting charged for anything, but he did not go to the grave in peace. Davis was outed by many of the victims he abused. There is no telling how many other horrific things he's done that he will have to answer for, and that is between him and God.
Anonymous said:
"4 years later I have PTSD."
There have been several people who have recognized the symtoms and realized that they have PTSD from their experience in the ntcc. Some have even been clinically diagosed with it. We are sorry to hear that your time in the ntcc has effected you in this way. I think all of us who were in for any amount of time have a certain degree of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. It's a good thing that you realize what it is and recognize the symptoms. Some folks get professional help and others allow time and God to heal them. Most of my healing from the ntcc experience has taken place by discussing things on the blog. The more you read and the more people share, the sooner you will be on your way to recovery.
If you can learn not to blame yourself and that what you went through was not your fault, it will help you recover faster. Some people never recover because they blame themselves for their entire life. It's one thing to admit that we were stupid for joining a cult or that we volunteered to be treated like slaves by a bunch of manipulative control mongering jerks, but in reality, what were we guilty of? We were wanting God. We were wanting Christianity and Salvation. Once we became Christians we were used by some really evil people and many were used for decades. When I got out of the ntcc, I spent a lot of time in sorrow, thinking that I blew my only chance to make it to heaven. I blamed myself, because when I left the ntcc, I also started living the way that I wanted to live instead of living the way I was living while in the ntcc. I blamed myself. I beat myself up daily and I allowed all of their false teachings to keep me from believing I'd ever be okay with God. I was absolutely exhibiting many of the symptoms of PTSD. It seemed impossible that I'd ever find my way in life or that I'd ever have any degree of happiness in my heart again. The ntcc makes it hard for a person to leave their cult and when they do finally leave, many leave with nothing. Absolutely nothing. No money, no friends, No family, no faith, no hope.
We hope you are doing better after 10 years of being away from the ntcc. It took me about that long or longer to realize that life was so much better without the ntcc than it was with them. One day my life took a turn for the better and I realized that most of what I went through in the ntcc was not my fault and that in spite of it all God still loved me. Perhaps I will always have regrets or wish that I would have made different decisions but in the long run, I know that no matter what we went through, we don't have to blame ourselves or carry it as a heavy burden on our back. It can be buried.
Anonymous said:
"The worst part is that these they use the BIBLE to get you in.. Spiritual Abuse is one of the worst things to happen.."
DNA said:
Cult tactics have been around since the serpent lied in the Garden to tempt Eve and Adam to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, saying: "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."
The Devil was saying, "listen to me, not God. I've got a better way. If you follow me you can eat of any tree you want. You can do what you want to do." The ntcc is just like the devil. They promise you everything and then they twist the scripture and in some cases make things up so that they can profit from your willingness to do anything to please God. Cult leaders can manipulate people to do anything. Hitler manipulated the Germans into thinking they were a superior race and slaughtering 6 million Jews. They can manipulate young minds to do anything they want. In the process they take what they want and get rich off of our loyalty to them. We assumed that giving to them was like giving to God and so we gave above and beyond what God required. They twisted the bible to get us to pay tithe and they violated the bible by twisting it's meaning to justify sexual acts that they committed against others. They were and still are spiritual abusers and they used whoever they could, for whatever they could get out of them.
The best way to recover from all this is realize who they were and what they were doing to you. They were not representing God. They were not Christians by any definition in the Bible. Don't blame yourself and don't allow them to ever use you again.
Oh and by the way, the ntcc doesn't own all rights to God. God still cares and always will love you. If anyone tells you otherwise they are lying to you. Don't ever let them stand between you and God, or look down on you and tell you that God doesn't care anymore. Who are they? They are the last people you should follow for spiritual advise. They don't care about your soul or your heart or your life or family. If you don't believe me, stop paying your tithe to them and see where their allegiance really lies. See how much they care about you as a Christian if you cut them off from their true love of money.
ANON Mike:
The best way to leave and to get your wife to leave is to ENJOY yourself and life. Take her to the Zoo, a picnic, whatever instead of anything NTCC related. Take her on a weeks vacation somewhere and she'll never want to come back. I started my split by watching Titanic with my wife. It worked. I then went to Korea and never ever wanted to come back.
I don't know that people raised in cults are more susceptible; in NTCC's case at least it seems like almost all the kids bail as soon as they can. I know that mine never bought into it and now they're immune from cult influence. The really dedicated folks were the ones who voluntarily gave themselves over, not the ones who were defaulted in via their parents.
ANON Mike said:
The best way to leave and to get your wife to leave is to ENJOY yourself and life. Take her to the Zoo, a picnic, whatever instead of anything NTCC related. Take her on a weeks vacation somewhere and she'll never want to come back. I started my split by watching Titanic with my wife. It worked. I then went to Korea and never ever wanted to come back.
DNA said:
That is actually some of the best advice you can give a person. Many people that leave feel like they got to keep on beating that spiritual drum and they go looking for another religion or another church. Another organization to give their money to, another church leader to give their resources to. I'm not trying to discourage anyone from attending church or keeping God in perspective in any way, but to recover from the cult experience, you need to get out and do some normal and fun activities. Do somethings to remind you why life is worth living.
We did a blog post called "The Return to Normalcy Tool Kit", and we recommended that people experience some of the great things and fun things there are to do in this world. Even if you are on a low budget there are probably places you can go nearby where you live and experience some of the fun things life has to offer. Get out and go fishing, visit a museum or a zoo is a great place and very therapeutic. Go to an Aquarium, take up bowling or golf or go hiking, camping or exploring.
These things will get your mind off of all the negative junk that you went through. If you have a family spend some quality time with them. Learn to make them an important part of your life. Get a dog or a cat, do normal things that you were never allowed to do in the ntcc. Do something fun for yourself also. Treat yourself to something nice. You deserve it. You have spent your life making other people rich and trying to put everyone else before you. Sometimes you get so busy taking care of everyone else that you deprive yourself of every good thing. You have to decompress before you can be any good to anyone and learning to enjoy your life is a very good start.
Unlearn all the garbage you were taught in the ntcc. Think about things that you want to do and then look them up in the bible and see if they really are a sin like the ntcc taught you. For example: If you want to get a dog or a cat or a bird or whatever kind of pet you might want, ask yourself the question, is it a sin to have a pet? If you don't already know the answer do a study on animals in your bible. See if there are any scriptures against having one. If there aren't any, you just won a victory in one area of your life. That now belongs to you and they can't have it back. Take your life back by unlearning ntcc doctrine, one rule at a time.
I have a hard time forgiving myself for being part of the deception machine.
Titanic is one of my all time favorite movies. It came out shortly after I left the ntcc and I watched it in a theater. What a sinner I must have been to actually step foot in a theater and watch the Titanic. I've always been fascinated by the story of the Titanic and that movie was really good. The special effects were awesome and the story line was captivating. The love story part of it was a littly cheesy but overall that was probably an all time favorite.
If you were to go to a movie in the ntcc back in the 80's or 90's you would be considered a big time sinner. Now they all have lists of their favorite movies and TV programs on facebook. A big part of the Denis split was executed because Brother Oloans secretly recorded a conversation where he pressed Phil Kinson to admit that it was okay to watch DVD's. Once Kinson said that it was okay, duplicate copies of that recording were made and spread to other ministers influencing them to follow Denis; so that Denis could lead the so called holiness revolution and create an exodus which made him a splinter group of the ntcc. This enabled Denis to do what Davis did. Now Denis could exploit the brethren with phony holiness doctrine and line his pockets with their money as they shook R'dub's dust off of their feet, and Denis provided them with an even more controlling and manipulative life of sacrifice, struggle and spiritual torture.
Vic Johanson said...
I don't know that people raised in cults are more susceptible;
DNA said:
My point was that people like Lisa, Julie, Pam and others were targets for abuse. Davis had absolute control over their parents and was able to target their children. Having never experienced anything outside of the cult they were ripe for the picking. The only education they had was in the ntcc day school
We have also made that point that most children find their way out of the ntcc as soon as they possibly can if they don't get married off at a young age. That is probably why the Board members try so hard to get their children married as soon as they are legal.
Anonymous said...
I have a hard time forgiving myself for being part of the deception machine.
DNA said:
I know how you feel, and you are not alone. At some point you have to forgive yourself. You were part of the machine, as we all were. Take it a day at a time. Try to enjoy life a little bit and give yourself a reason to forgive yourself.
In the past there were times that I was my worst enemy. I had a hard time getting over the ntcc and moving on. It took a long time before I could even wear a pair of shorts. A little bit at a time life would challenge me and it was easy to get in a rut and think that good things were not meant for me. I was depressed and kept to myself for quite a while. There were few people I trusted and nobody would understand the things that I went through.
I'm not sure if there is an easy way and maybe I'm not the best person to give advice, but if it were up to me, I'd say give yourself a break. If nobody else cares about you, God does.
I've heard about the kids at NTCC on facebook. They don't look holiness at all anymore. What the heck is the status on NTCC and holiness? Did they completely rid themselves of it? It sounds like tithing and knocking on doors is all that's left.
The best thing you can do is spend a season beating yourself for being deceived. It sucks and you got taken.
After that talk about your experiences with loved ones or if it embarrasses you just come on here and write.
I've moved past the not forgiving myself to the anger phase. I can tell I'm starting to cool off the more I explore and learn from my mistakes. This was a journey and you have to go through it.
Don't let it destroy you though.
D/A
My apologies for getting off topic but I know you guys have good sources. Do you know if the attendance was down at the conference that just ended?
Many were missing from this conference that just ended.
Reading some of the money realities is so hard but I can so see my own experience. The husband and I took over a work that the previous pastor had abandon upon leaving the organization three years ago. Our family was struggling to eat and live. My mom came into town wanting so much to see us and knew she had to come to where we were if she ever had any hope of seeing us.
There was hardly anything in the cabinets and I was so embarrassed. I told my mom there isn't much but you know how it is two days before payday. She just hugged me and smiled. I didn't tell her that most of the check was going to our rent and the rest of the church rent that the offerings hadn't covered. My husband called in trying to reach Rev. Olsen to see if we could just send in 2/3 of the church payment so he could feed his family. He finally got a hold of Rev. Kekel. He was told to have faith if he would be obedient God would bless so that Friday he sent in the payment. My mom saw how raggy my clothes were and offered to take me shopping for new clothes. It had been so long since I had new anything. She then offered to buy groceries. We thought this was God blessing us for our obedience.
Months later at meeting where some of the churches got together to hear Rev. Kekel preach, Tanya Kekel asked if what I was wearing was a new dress. I told her how months earlier we had been blessed of God. What she said shocks me even now. She said something to the effect of I hope you remembered to pay tithe on all those blessings. Sometimes it is easy to get caught up in the blessings that someone forgets to bring their tithe to God's house which could cause God to refuse to bless them in the future. I was so worried then. I told her I had been so excited that I hadn't thought about what God requires of even material gifts. She told me that my husband and I should talk to Rev. Kekel before leaving about repairing this error. I pulled my husband aside and told him. He thought we were okay in this situation but talked to Rev. Kekel to be sure and put me at peace. That conversation didn't go well. It was the real beginning to my husband wanting out of this organization.
We have been out for less then a year now. It is nice to know that I don't have to wake up in the morning wondering if the family can eat today or dread the weekend when there is no free school meals. I can now eat lunch knowing there is food enough for everyone at dinner.
Thank you for the assurance I don't have to jump into a church to keep my salvation or be close to God that is helpful to know.
This conference was smaller than the last conference.
" I hoped you paid tithe..."
what a greedy old *&%#*! I would have sent my old clothes as tithe payment. jerks!
La'Toya said:
"The husband and I took over a work that the previous pastor had abandon upon leaving the organization three years ago."
DNA said:
That's good news. The ones before you got out and now you are out. Mike and Tanya are losing. They are losers anyway, but now they are losing ministers and their wives. People are leaving with their marriages intact. The Kekels are losing tithe dollars. The Kekels are losing faithful people to push around and treat like dirt. Good news!
La'Toya said:
"Our family was struggling to eat and live. My mom came into town wanting so much to see us and knew she had to come to where we were if she ever had any hope of seeing us."
DNA said:
This is common place in the ntcc. This is another example of good people struggling to make ends meet and having to do without, for a building and so that tithe dollars could be sent up to Graham. Guess what Kekel, You are losing. You have mistreated people and they are leaving slowly but surely, faster than you can train people to take their places. You can manipulate the church locator and fool yourself and your minions, you can lie to them in conferences and say, "We are winning" but when it's all said and done, you are nothing but a big loser that hates God.
How can I say that Kekel hates God?
In 1 John 3:17 it says: "But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?" Kekels bowels are full of something but it's definitely not compassion. Kekel has all kinds of money but he's not going to spend a penny of it to help anyone in the ntcc.
La'Toya said:
"He thought we were okay in this situation but talked to Rev. Kekel to be sure and put me at peace. That conversation didn't go well. It was the real beginning to my husband wanting out of this organization."
DNA said:
This is proof that the love of God does not dwell in Kekel. First of all, he seen a minister in his organization in need and would not help him. Kekel is not a brother and the love of God does not dwell in him. He is the opposite of what he claims to be an what many people see him as. Kekel hates God and does things constantly that prove he does not love God. If you see your brother in need, and you have no compassion, the Love of God is not in you. This is not Advanced Theology and you don't need a special revelation from God to see this.
I hope that they shut down that church where ever it might be and don't send anyone else there, but if they do, don't be surprised if they fail also. It's not La'Toya and her husband that failed anyway. It's the system that's destined to fail. There are very good people in the ntcc and it's unfortunate that they thrown into situations where they have to sink or swim, while the Kekels are soaking in their Jacuzzi eating Bon Bons and plotting how they are going to manipulate people with weak minds and strong backs.
La'Toya, I know it's hard to leave and it takes time to heal. Thank you for sharing your testimony. There are others out there that can relate to your comment but they are afraid to do so and there are some who might be emboldened to share what they have been through. Encourage yourselves and strengthen each other. Ange and I do that all the time. We talk about what we know and we know a lot. We have seen a lot and it helps us every time someone shares a comment like yours. It authenticates what we already know and confirms the other voices we have heard.
Read the blogs. They are like an encyclopedia of information about the ntcc and how they have operated for the past 46 years. Chiefs blog has hundreds if not thousands of X member's testimonies. GS/DS blog is not active but there is a whole wealth of information about how the ntcc operates. There are pages of documentation that prove what the ntcc is all about. If you were to read half the stories on just one of our blogs, you would be able to sum up what the ntcc is all about. They are nothing more than a family owned business that has allowed the Davis and Kekel families to become filthy rich off of their hard earned money. Too many people have been abused and too many people have been trampled on in the ntcc.
La'Toya, congratulations on getting out. We left about a year ago. We had assumed a church and it was horrible trying to pay for it and for us to live. We had been lead to believe it was a self-supporting church. We used everything we had to keep it going. Then when we were in real need we received no help. Do we buy food for us, or pay the church electric bill? We can live on ramen for another month..pay the electric bill!
People we thought were friends just said "pray and God will bless". They'd ask why were weren't at Fellowship Meetings. It takes gas, which takes money, DUH!
Thankfully, as in your case, true colors came out, so we left. God IS blessing and there is food on our table. Maybe I should send some twinkie wrappers to Graham as tithe?
Pray for my spouse because my spouse hasn't seen the light concerning these. My spouse would get upset with me for not going to Ntcc . after almost 20 years and my spouse doesn't see anywhere to get the gospel beside Ntcc. I will never go back to that place with my spouse. I'm saying my spouse because I will not reveal my gender.
Anon a mouse said:
"We can live on ramen for another month..pay the electric bill!
People we thought were friends just said "pray and God will bless"."
DNA said:
Poverty in the ntcc is a way of life. It is sad that you had to eat Ramen just so you could keep the electric bill paid. Priorities in the ntcc are way out of whack. People think that they are required to pay the ntcc leadership everything and then have faith in God to feed them. This is foolish and irresponsible of the ntcc to require it. They are wasting their most precious resource and that is people who would do anything for them. This is not mutual. If you are placed into a situation where you can't take care of basic needs, and having to choose between eating Ramen for a month or being able to pay your electric bill, you are being set up for failure by someone who should be supporting you. I'm not talking about paying all your bills but they are utterly stupid for not helping you out to some degree.
I can promise you that Mike and Tanya eat whatever they want to eat three times a day. Davis never did without. These are heartless people that don't live by the bible. They say, pray and God will bless you. James 2:16 "And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?" I can answer that question. It profits the selfish and greedy, lazy and worthless leaders who are living large off of every dime they can shake out of you. The Kekel's are not Christians because they can watch people suffer and continue to profit off of their suffering and when you come to them in a time of need they will say, pray and have faith, but they will not lift a finger to help you. In the long run they lose their greatest resource and that is the people that support them.
Anon a mouse said:
"Thankfully, as in your case, true colors came out, so we left."
DNA said:
Great comment! This is what it often takes for people to leave. Their true colors have to come out and you have to see their true nature. Often they try to mask this behavior in conferences even during revival services, by offering words of encouragement and make you think that you are on a sojourning in a perilous land and time with God, and they are here to be your guide and light your way in this darkened world. In all actuality they are here to be a leach on the body of Christ. They are here to suck you dry of every cent you earn. They are here to keep you oppressed and in servitude to them. You will see their true colors but many times when it isn't directed towards you, you will think you dodged that bullet or you will think, "thank God we did that right". But the devil can't help but show his true colors and neither can the Kekels. There is a mixture in the ntcc of those who are sincere and trying to be loyal to God and their church members, or their brothers and sisters in the church, and those who are loyal to the organization leaders. There are a lot of pastors that have been so completely brain washed that everything they do is a mirror image of what their leaders do. They also are in it for the power and greed. They treat people the exact same way that the Kekels treat people. They live one way, and require their members to live another way. The ntcc works for them because they have forced themselves to become manipulators just like the Kekels are. They oppress people just like Davis did. They have very little love, patience or respect for anyone but themselves.
The saddest was when we had to go to other churches to ask for food. Couldn't count on ntcc for a stick gum!
If you want to shorten your misery in the ntcc, you need to draw them out. Ask them questions that will make them show their true colors. If you pay tithe which is not biblical, you should at least have a right to know where your money is going. You should be offended at the way the ntcc royal Kekel family lives, especially if you are struggling every week to make ends meet. You have a right to ask them where your money is going. You have a right to ask them how much money is owed on the church you are paying for or how much money is in the escrow. You have a right to know how much of your money they spend on their own luxurious lifestyle. You have a right to know how many cars they have and what they are valued at. How much property they personally own and it's value. You have a right to know how much money they spend on food in fine dining restaurants or anywhere for that matter, if they eat steak and lobster every night while you are dining on ramen and if you are lucky enough to afford a pack of preacher tube steaks, (hot dogs).
Ask them these questions and see just how long their Christianity holds out. See how much they love you and want to support your ministry. See how indignant they become and how belligerent they get. You want to see the devil face to face? Ask Kekel those questions that we just asked and I can promise that you will see the devil face to face. Better yet, get up in Tanya's grill and ask her some of those questions. If you want to see someone go nuclear on you, ask those question. Get down to where they are living at. That's what they try to do to you. They get all up in your personal business and humiliate you in front of others. Next time you see Kekel in front of a group of people tell him you want to know where all his money is going and see how loving and what an example of Christianity he will exhibit.
I guarantee that you will shorten your misery in the ntcc if you ask them these questions. Do yourself a favor. Do your family a favor. Don't wait until you've burned every bridge with all your family and friends and you have absolutely nothing left. Save yourself a few years of grief and learn what the Kekel family is all about. Draw them out from behind whatever rocks they are hiding behind and let them reveal their true colors.
Anon a mouse said:
"Maybe I should send some twinkie wrappers to Graham as tithe?"
DNA said:
"When John the Baptist made his first appearance the book of Luke 3:7 "Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?"
There were all kinds of people there. There were tax collectors and soldiers, there were hypocrites and religious people there also. There were people just like Kekel there who were ones that John referred to as vipers.
John said if you have two coats give one of them to he that has none. He told the Tax collectors to exact no more out of a person than what has been appointed of you. In other words don't get greedy and try to make a bunch of money off of people. He told the soldiers: "Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages."
Kekel is not worthy of your twinky wrappers. He is guilty of doing all these things that John warned people of. When is the last time you seen Kekel give one of his coats to anyone who was freezing? I'm sure he has a few extras. When is the last time you seen Kekel be satisfied with what he has. He keeps getting richer and richer. His goal is to become as rich as you will let him. Do violence to no man? When he condemns people to hell, he is committing an act of spiritual violence that is more damaging to people than any act of physical violence will ever be. He accuses people falsely and never makes it right with them. Kekel is the accuser of the brethren. Anyone who no longer participates in Kekel's cult is considered a God hater. If you leave his cult you will also be accused and people will disassociate themselves from you for the rest of your life at his behest. And Kekel has never been content with his wages. He has an insatiable desire to have more and more of your money. He doesn't care how poor you are or what you have to go through, he wants every single dime that you owe him and he will grab you by your throat, (spiritually speaking), and squeeze it until you cough it up. You need to pray, he'll tell you as he grinds his heal into your head like a cigarette butt that needs to be extinguished. Who needs to pray?
Kekel is not worth the stamp required to send your empty twinky packages to him in the mail.
Anonymous said...
Pray for my spouse because my spouse hasn't seen the light concerning these. My spouse would get upset with me for not going to Ntcc . after almost 20 years and my spouse doesn't see anywhere to get the gospel beside Ntcc. I will never go back to that place with my spouse. I'm saying my spouse because I will not reveal my gender.
DNA said:
We will pray for you and your spouse. We believe in prayer. We also will ask any of our readers who believe in prayer to pray for you and your spouse. We are not going to say, "Everybody drop what you are doing and pray at a certain time", or if you don't pray you don't care, but we do believe in prayer. We hope that people will willingly pray for you when they see your situation and your needs. We also appreciate it when people pray for us. We actually pray for others and people on this blog. We know how oppressive the ntcc can be and we believe that prayer is one of the best ways to effect change in the ntcc.
I know people will say, what's there to pray about, you know that you need to leave, it's simple. But it's not always that simple. Anon a mouse also blogged about a similar situation she was in and we prayed for her husband and I'm sure others did too. I'm not going to claim that it was our prayers that got them out, but it sure didn't hurt anything to pray for them. We use the scriptures to disprove the ntcc's doctrine, but there are many scriptures that support the effectiveness of prayer and we believe those also.
Anonymous is in the middle of a spiritual war. I'm serious. If you are in the ntcc and your spouse is not convinced that they are in a cult, you are between a rock and a hard place. I don't care if you are the minister that believes he should leave or the minister's wife that knows things aren't right. If you love your spouse I understand why you would want to the decision to leave to be mutual. So, if you believe in prayer, pray for them. If not, we are not condemning you. Everyone needs time and space to recover from this mind melting cult experience.
Anonymous said...
"Pray for my spouse because my spouse hasn't seen the light concerning these. My spouse would get upset with me for not going to Ntcc"
Julie says.....
Anonymous I am praying for your spouse to see the truth about NTCC and get out. I pray for strength for you and your marriage as well.
Hugs,
Julie
NTCC leaders don't care a fig about anyone's finances but their own. We got married in September, 1983. I was a newly minted husband and stepfather, making $5.50 an hour in St. Louis. In October, we were on the road in a yellow Honda Civic which was packed to the roof (and on the roof) with our meager possessions, heading for Fairbanks, Alaska. We had $1,000, but my grandmother found out I'd gotten married (no family was invited), and she sent a savings bond she had kept against that day that was worth about $1,500 which arrived a day or two before we left. Good thing, because it took every penny to get settled in the single wide mobile home we ended up in (which got real interesting when it got down below -50 degrees). The job I found paid $800 a month. Somehow we never went broke, but if I'd have had any sense, I would have gone down and signed up for food stamps. We didn't have a phone for a few months because we couldn't afford the deposit. We were quite willing to sacrifice like this for "the work of God," because it didn't occur to us that the money of which we deprived ourselves to send to St. Louis was being squandered on the conspicuous consumption of greedy and spiritually bankrupt phonies. No, we thought we were all in this together, so we did our part. Turns out we were doing their part too, because it was no use expecting them to lift a finger to help. And what kind of organization would send a minister anyplace a month after he got married (and of course, as in all NTCC marriages, we knew almost nothing about one another)? That's just demented. By some miracle, we're still together 31 years later, but it's no thanks to them. Our experience was harrowing, but mild compared to many others.
This is how they roll. Those at the bottom of the pyramid are like chess pawns--they're of little consequence and the "leaders" don't hesitate to sacrifice them for preservation of those higher up the ladder. They're guilty of one of the most heinous sins Jesus railed against--despising the poor--while they heap up treasures on earth and live like King Tut. They have their reward.
La'Toya said...
"My husband called in trying to reach Rev. Olsen to see if we could just send in 2/3 of the church payment so he could feed his family. He finally got a hold of Rev. Kekel. He was told to have faith if he would be obedient God would bless so that Friday he sent in the payment. My mom saw how raggy my clothes were and offered to take me shopping for new clothes. It had been so long since I had new anything. She then offered to buy groceries. We thought this was God blessing us for our obedience."
Julie says....
The fact your husband wanted to only send in part of the rent payment so he could have money to buy groceries shows how caring of a husband and father he is. The fact that Kekel did not tell him to not worry about that payment and keep his money shows how much he truly does not care about others.
Hugs,
Julie
La'Toya, like Anon a mouse, don and Ange said It is truly good news that you made it out of that place. I understand the excitement of having enough food. I am so glad you don't have to worry about eating anymore.
Hugs,
Julie
Anonymous said...
The saddest was when we had to go to other churches to ask for food. Couldn't count on ntcc for a stick gum!
DNA said:
That is pretty sad. Usually homeless people or people who are not capable of making ends meet go to churches for help. It's sad when a minister of a church and fall into that category. The ntcc creates poverty.
Vic said:
"They're guilty of one of the most heinous sins Jesus railed against--despising the poor--while they heap up treasures on earth and live like King Tut. They have their reward."
DNA said:
Don't that make you want to be like Mike and Tanya. What a great example to follow.
Vic said....
"And what kind of organization would send a minister anyplace a month after he got married (and of course, as in all NTCC marriages, we knew almost nothing about one another)"
Julie says....
It shows how they don't hold marriage as an important thing. They could careless if someone stays married or divorces as long as they get what they want that is all that matters to them.
Anonymous said...
"The saddest was when we had to go to other churches to ask for food. Couldn't count on ntcc for a stick gum!"
Julie says....
That is sad. I remember as a kid getting in line for the block of cheese, powdered milk,and rice. Sometimes there was lard too. Taking hand out where ever we could get them. I wonder what people thought watching us do this.
Hugs,
Julie
Ntcc ministers having to go to other churches to get food about tops all I've ever heard. Kekel would just as soon have you living at a homeless shelter as long as you paid him every last dime that he requires of you. You don't even owe him the money that you are giving him. I'm not even sure they have any valid claim to collect your personal tithe and church tithe. Is there any agreement that you have to sign saying you will pay church tithe or personal tithe to them? There might be some mutual binding agreement of such, I never went to ntcc brain washing academy. I remember that it was shared by Ange that most ministers had a meeting just before they left town about their financial responsibilities and obligations. She said on her way out of town, with the car loaded Eric Barden had to stop by the office and get verbal instructions pertaining to financial obligations. All newly appointed preachers at this time were instructed to do so. It was the last thing thing they did on their way out of town. The only written rules I could find governing finances were in article 11 and 12 of the bylaws as follows:
Article XI — Minister Tithes
(A) All ministers shall pay their tithe according to financial policy of organization.
(B) Tithe to be governed by financial policy is to be explained when licenses are issued.
(C) All ministers must keep an up-to-date tithing record.
Article XII — Financial Policy
(A) Financial policy is to be set by the Executive Committee and is to govern all districts and the General Offices.
My question to ministers in the organization is, do you ever sign any kind of contract acknowledging these financial responsibilities? Article 11 says that all ministers shall pay their tithe according to the financial policy of the organization. Has anyone seen an actual hard copy of this financial policy? Article 11 says that tithe is to be explained upon issuance of ministers license. Article 12 says that financial policy is to be set by the Executive Committee and is to govern all districts and the General Offices. Is there any agreement in writing?
Perhaps there is no agreement in writing and there is no written financial policy because the ntcc is a non profit organization and they don't report all of the money that comes in. I'm just fishing here. Can anyone out there say that they have ever seen a copy of the ntcc financial policy? Requiring a minister to pay personal tithe and church tithe seems a lot like double dipping. Is this another dirty secret or am I shooting fish in a barrel? It all smells fishy to me. Maybe we need to do a blog post about this. If you are a current ntcc minister and you want to chime in on this, please do so anonymously if you would like. Let me know if there is a written contract you sign agreeing to pay them pastor tithe, and church tithe, also if there is a financial policy in writing that you have ever seen, or if things are just explained to you verbally before you hit the highway. Thanks.
We would like to invite three (or more) ntcc ministers (current or former) to tell us what the "financial policy" is/was and how they learned that (verbal instruction? written form?). Did someone explain the policy to you when you picked up your minister's license from the org office on your way to your first work? Who explained it? And what exactly was shared? Thanks.
I remembered a particular family was was saved and was active in the church, this family was packed and sent to bible school. Before they left for bible school the church hot together for a going away. Great food, good fellowship, money and gifts were given to them. Most of us thought they gt to bible school only to find out from a little birdie that they never went but change their number and moved back to their home town. This was kept a secret from the church who gave and was behind them. I was not happy at the time because I gave as well but now come to think about it this man and his family realized something I didn't at the time. They were very young and fresh out the military. I wondered if they were ever called by God or by the Pastor.
ntcc is just pseudo corporate church that makes each of its ministers who go out to a work franchisee owners. ya want fries wit that?
God is the packaged product in which they believe is patented under the borg inc. the business of God is actually the business of man.
who is more of a threat: ntcc or isis?
Anonymous said:
"Most of us thought they got to bible school only to find out from a little birdie that they never went but changed their number and moved back to their home town."
DNA said:
Good for them. I know people might say they were dishonest for taking the money and not going to bible school but when you you give to someone there should be no strings attached and if they didn't ask for the money or gifts and they didn't verbally agree to any conditions of receiving it, maybe it should be considered a huge blessing that they saved years of their young lives in a cult, and with your help they escaped. I owed money to the World missions program when I left the organization. I made a pledge of $2,000.00. I don't think I paid much if any of that money and I felt guilty for years. When I found out that the ntcc was a fraudulent money making empire and controlling cult, I rejoiced that my money wasn't used to further their corrupt existence.
If you give your money to a charity and you make a pledge to give them a certain amount, you are doing so because you believe in the cause. If you are watching TV in the middle of the night and you see one of those infomercials that shows babies with swollen bellies suffering in remote parts of the world and the narrator says how can you let these children die, pulling on your heart strings and purse strings, and you decide to make a pledge, you are agreeing to give money to help those babies. If you find out a couple days later that it's nothing but a big scam, and the money isn't going towards those babies, but it's being funneled up to some Huckster that's getting rich, What's worse? Breaking your word or making someone rich that is using the suffering of other human beings to make huge profits? I'll take the lesser of two evils and ask God to forgive me for all the money that I did give to the religious hypocrites in the ntcc that were misrepresenting where all the money you gave was actually going. The ntcc is doing the same thing. They are making money off of other people's suffering. If half of the money that went into Kekel's mansions, was spent in the foreign mission fields there would be much more progress in the overseas works than there ever has been, but all those ministers live in utter poverty and I've never heard of the ntcc giving an overseas minister in need a dime.
Now there are groups that you can give to that do actually help starving children, and I know people who give to those groups. The groups that are reputable exercise a practice called transparency. They open their books and they allow people to see where all their money actually goes so they can feel good about giving. Transparent people usually have nothing to hide. They want you to feel good about giving and they want you to have the assurance that they are not a bunch of lying religious hucksters. People that are not transparent, especially religious con artists like Kekel are very secretive and they have lots of things to hide, secrets to keep and lies to tell. Anyone that will collect over 10% of your income and not explain in detail where it goes and show proof to you that it is being spent as advertised is taking you for a ride and getting rich off of your ignorant giving.
Jon said:
"God is the packaged product in which they believe is patented under the borg inc. the business of God is actually the business of man."
DNA said:
That is a good comparison. I'm not sure that the ntcc local franchise owners profit as much as they would from a franchise, but they sure do pay their share into it. I'm sure that any franchise is a struggle to begin and there are probably quite a few that make money off of the people that buy into them. They get a constant stream of income off of the profits just like the ntcc royalty does.
The main point that you made is that they package God up and make it a man made business. They make money off God, by guilt tripping everyone into believing they have to give till it hurts. The money flows uphill instead of downhill. In the early church money was given to help the poor and afflicted, while now it is given to support ministers so they can live high on the hog.
Getting back on point, the more I think about the "financial policy" of the ntcc, the more of a scam it is. The ntcc is careful to make new bible school students sign agreements to keep all the rules, They make people who move into Servicemen's homes sign agreements and they make Ministers that are taking over existing works sign inventories to make sure nobody steals anything from the church or home they are moving into. Why would the ntcc neglect to have a written agreement signed by the minister and the organization to describe their financial obligations and to have a written agreement between both parties? Davis said if he did business with his brother he would make him sign a contract. There is a reason for this other than the ntcc is supposed to be a non profit organization and they do not spend their money the way they are reporting it to the IRS.
Now I don't know if this has changed but according to the bylaws it appears to be handled in the same way. Financial policies are given verbally to the minister when he is issued his minister's license on the way out of town. Now lets take a look at the bylaws which govern the ntcc financial policy one more time:
Article XI — Minister Tithes
(A) All ministers shall pay their tithe according to financial policy of organization.
(B) Tithe to be governed by financial policy is to be explained when licenses are issued.
(C) All ministers must keep an up-to-date tithing record.
Article XII — Financial Policy
(A) Financial policy is to be set by the Executive Committee and is to govern all districts and the General Offices.
This raises all sorts of questions.
1. All ministers shall pay their tithe according to financial policy of organization. Why is it that you need a financial policy to explain tithe to new minister when they just spent two to three years in your bible school? Why wouldn't you have a class that covers church finances? Why is tithe so hard to understand?
Answer: You don't want them to have any time to think about it. They have been packing their car all day long and tying up loose ends and are exhausted and just want to go do a work for God, and on their way out of town you make them verbally agree to something by dangling their minister's license in front of them. Tithe is something that you teach without scripture because there is no scripture that mandates the paying of tithe by New Testament Christians.
continued below...
2. All ministers shall pay their tithe according to financial policy of organization. If tithe is a biblical principle and you just spent years teaching them the bible, why would you need a financial policy to explain it?
Answer: Because it's all a big scam and you don't want people to figure it out in a class room setting. I would venture to say that there is not a class on paying tithe as there is not a class on church finances. Why? Because they don't want you to think about it. They don't want you to ponder it. You might figure out their scam before you graduate and leave.
3. All ministers must keep an up to date tithing record. What for? So that they can hold you accountable for paying every cent of tithe that you think you owe them. Why do they not have to keep an up to date record of receiving tithe? Why isn't it open for your scrutiny to see what they do with your money?
The answer is plain and simple. They are a bunch of con artists that practice double standards. You will always have to pay them and there will never be any biblical justification for the amount of money you give them, or how they spend it. This is how they get rich. This is how Kekel ends up eating steak and lobster while you enjoy a candle light dining experience on Ramen Noodles. This is why you drive an oil puking junker while Kekel garages a Mercedes McClaren valued at over a quarter million dollars according to witnesses. This is why you have to sleep on the floor while the Kekels sleep in a bed that probably costs more than 5 times the net value of the car you drive. This is why the Kekel's get to go on all expense paid vacations, gallivanting all over the world at your expense while you tell your parents that you can't afford afford to drive two states away to visit them and that you are too busy with the program of God to take vacations. This is why Tanya Kekel is able to buy a $400.00 Alpaca scarf while your entire wardrobe was purchased at the local Goodwill store for $75.00. When is it going to end? I want to be understanding, because I was in the same place you are at one time. Now all I can see is a bunch of people enabling the ntcc leadership to live in wealth while they all struggle in poverty.
If there is no written policy explaining tithe and you haven't signed an agreement, you might want to consider holding on to your money when you need it. Next time you are faced with the situation of paying the electric bill or paying church tithe and pastor tithe, ask yourself the question: What would Jesus do? Do you think that Jesus would skip paying the electric bill so he could give his money to the rich religious hypocrites? Would Jesus put you in that position? I would take care of the bills and the people under my ministry before sending their money to the ntcc hucksters so they can finance more luxurious furnishings for their mansions.
I'm not saying to stop paying the ntcc all together, but just send them a letter saying this week we can only send you this much money because the people in this ministry need to provide for their families and I'm tired of eating Ramen Noodles while you go out to Red Lobster every night. When we get caught up on all of our bills and it we start being responsible for what God has given us, ie. our families and our basic needs, food shelter and clothing, electricity and get our priorities in order we'll send you tithe. You might think that they'll remove you immediately, but they are running out of people to send places, and you are not the only ones struggling. We have received testimony in the past of one couple that was struggling so much that they hadn't sent any tithe money to the ntcc for months and they stayed at that work for a long time.
What right does the ntcc have to over charge you for a building by making you pay more for a payment than they would have to if they financed it? What right do they have to make you pay individual tithe and church tithe, when you are struggling to take care of the basic needs of your church? I would ask them straight up, What would Jesus do if he were in your position? Would he require me to extract every dime out of the few faithful people we have in church to pay you tithe when we can't even afford to provide for our own families, so you can get filthy rich and withhold no good thing from yourselves regardless of expense? Show me in the bible one time where Jesus required that of his followers or where the Apostles became stinking tycoons off of other peoples money.
I wondered if they were ever called by God or by the Pastor.
No one in the ntcc is called by god. The ones who go to bs are called by some ungodly pastor.
Another thing noticed as I am military spouse, the pastors that I've been under seems to want to keep us their even when we trying to get orders elsewhere it seem as though it displeases them. I had to really descern that spirit is selfish because why do you think the a gospel is only in your building and when we choose to go you or your wife talking about your other NTCC in areas. Why does it have to be in your organization? Don't you believe Jesus is everywhere and can keep me saved? It's just weird how the mindset of the people are. Knowing all that I know and expierenced first hand I just can't find it in my heart to go back. Not to mention the same ole same ole songs that we sing. I also noticed that a show seem to be a put in when guest ministers come in town and the pumping and priming of the services only to go back to the same ole once they are gone. I started to observe things and realized I no longer want to be part of this men pleasing way. Before REV Davis passing I knew things would change because preacher were taking vacation they would have never taken when he was alive but after his passing it seem that the ones who who least think was now different.
Let know of any other blogs to follow as well. Thanks
This is right in line with Davis teaching "you can't build a church with poor people." Someone like thiss lady would likely have little to offer Ntcc. That's opposite of what the word "ministry" really means. How sad!
This should help
http://trinityfi.org/religious-fraud-prevention-tips/
complain to your state's attorney general.
There isn't any written agreement for tithe. They verbally explain it to you and guilt trip you into following it. They know what you have by the bank account and weekly reports. If you show that you have ten people you better show enough tithe coming into the church or they will embarras you bad. Rev Kekel told my son I was robbing from God and God considered me the same as a murderer. My poor son worried that God was going to send me to hell. It wasn't until the school call me that realized how worried he had begun. That was so hurtful to him emotionally. I contacted Rev. Kekel about it and he said it was God's way of getting me to stop robbing him. He told me some horrible stories how God punishes people for taking his money. I was so scared that I started paying extra. Not no more. We left two years ago.
Although I payed my tith but never any extra offering, I have never believed in their teaching if one is not paying tith makes them go to hell. I did't make much money at the time I was in under Ramirez. Maybe that's why he was so unfriendly. Kind regards Germany.
Anon a mouse said,
"Maybe I should send some twinkie wrappers to Graham as tithe?"
Belinda says,
Bwahahahahaha! I think I have an old tithing envelope you could use to send it to them!
non tithing ex minister said:
"They verbally explain it to you and guilt trip you into following it."
DNA said:
Thank you for replying. Can you be more specific as to how it was explained to you? I know I kept the books in several churches and If I remember right the Pastor's tithe was based on his income and included Sunday mornings offerings, while church tithe covered a lot more of the incoming cash. I don't know if you were involved in Servicemen's works or not but it seems like the Home offerings were expected to be included in church tithe. Again, most of my memories of the ntcc are like a distant haze and there are things that I haven't thought of in so long. We would appreciate anything you could add.
non tithing ex minister said:
"They know what you have by the bank account and weekly reports. If you show that you have ten people you better show enough tithe coming into the church or they will embarras you bad."
DNA said:
So it's like a no win situation. If you lie about it than you are lying and compromising your relationship with God, much like Denis did when he held back money from the ntcc and influenced others to do the same. If you don't play the game to their standards then they will come through and plow your fields, and convince your loved ones that you are just like a murderer.
non tithing ex minister said:
"Rev Kekel told my son I was robbing from God and God considered me the same as a murderer. My poor son worried that God was going to send me to hell."
DNA said:
This is sad and disturbing. Thanks for sharing this, and I'm sorry you had to go through this. This is why so many people end up leaving the ntcc. Kekel is not motivated by the fear that if you don't pay tithe that you are going to end up in hell. He is motivated by greed for your money. I'm glad that you got out and that you are no longer contributing to their absorbent life style. I hope others follow you to freedom and find their way out of this mess.
Anonymous said:
This should help. (followed by website for trinity foundation)
Laws that the ntcc breaks daily:
Inurement:
This is a term used by the IRS to describe excessive compensation and benefits — a massive amount of money given by well meaning donors is intercepted by the organization’s hierarchy to be used for their own private benefit. This includes such things as huge salaries, large housing allowances, “parsonages” that are mansions, ministry aircraft (often private corporate jets that become personal airliners for a pastor’s vacations), enormous clothing allowances, luxury cars, unregulated ministry credit card usage, ministry ranches “for the pastors devotional time”, etc.
Conversion:
Another IRS term that describes creating for-profit companies to benefit from non-profit organizations. The leadership of the non-profit ministries are the same individuals controlling and benefitting from the for-profit entities. One example: the Copeland Cattle Ranch recently grazed its cattle and horses on their own church’s land, Eagle Mountain International Church, run by Kenneth Copeland Ministries. Another example: Joni Lamb, vice-president of the Daystar Television Network, recently wrote a book, published by her for-profit company, Joni Lamb Publications, and then sold the copies to her non-profit TV network.
Anonymous said:
"I did't make much money at the time I was in under Ramirez. Maybe that's why he was so unfriendly. Kind regards Germany."
DNA said:
I was under Ramirez and he was friendly to me but that's because I gave very liberally to him and followed every rule. There are many others that share your feelings about him. We've heard from quite a few. He has passed away and no longer is in a position where he can use ntcc doctrine to manipulate people. Unfortunately he was trained to do that and so are all the ntcc ministers. Many of them don't realize how badly they hurt others by preaching the ntcc false doctrine. Even if you love someone, but you believe that not paying your tithe is just as bad as murder, and you preach that, you are hurting other people. The sad thing is that there is no scripture to back that up. The non tithing ex minister's son was turned against his own Dad because Kekel was so greedy for money.
You shouldn't have been required to pay 10% of your income if you were barely making enough to survive. There is no love and no Christianity behind that. Thank you for you comment, we appreciate you sharing that with us.
There was a class on church finances; we were taught how to keep the books. When I went to Fairbanks, I got a refresher from Joe Olson. They made it quite clear to us at the outset what was expected, except that later on, when I started a building fund, they made sure to let me know I need to be sending it in to HW for "safekeeping."
Thank you for caring so much about people. Sometimes the healing process can be hard. Not to be all weird but your prayers and compassion mean a lot to me.
Vic Johanson said...
There was a class on church finances;
DNA said:
Thanks Vic. The ntcc bylaws state that the financial policy would be explained at the time that Licenses were issued. This was consistent with what others said but your comment was the first I've heard of any classes that covered book keeping. Did they ever tell you where all the money was going, or did the just tell you where your money was supposed to go? My experience in the ntcc leads me to believe that they never did, but I've never been to their brain washing Academy. Another question, Is Pastor's tithe and Church tithe like paying tithe twice or is it like paying tithe on money that is not really an increase? I kept the books for several years but in spite of that, I don't remember the difference. It seemed like Pastor's tithe was paid on the ministers income and Sunday morning's offering, while church tithe was paid on everything else.
Yes I remember a finance class back when Ralph and Joan went bible school and went Ralph taught in the bible school. I attended a few classes when Ralph and Joan had where else to put me. I don't remember it being a class when I went to bible school though.
long road said...
Thank you for caring so much about people. Sometimes the healing process can be hard. Not to be all weird but your prayers and compassion mean a lot to me.
DNA said:
Thank you and we are glad you see it that way. We ultimately want to see people freed from the bondage of the ntcc and any cult like it. We consider the ntcc to be very dangerous to a persons spiritual welfare. We are thankful for all those who escape and share what they have been through. The blogs are successful when they educate people and people use that knowledge to help them make it through the ntcc experience.
We know that there are a lot of people in the ntcc who read our blog. Some stumble across it while doing a google search and others follow what's going on regularly or whenever there busy schedule allows them to read. We are are hard on you ntcc'rs because we have been down the same long road, and we know it's hard to break free. We are here to break you out of your Jail, but if you don't want to leave or are not ready to leave, we understand. If you are waiting on a spouse, keep praying and waiting and so will we. The ntcc paints a hopeless picture on the other side of those jail bars. They lead you to believe that we are the ones locked up while you are living in freedom but it is actually quite the opposite. It's a delusion that they have created for you to live in, and they use that delusion so you will keep giving your money to them and so that you will fear ever leaving them.
God is on both sides of the jail bars, but He is not interested in your money, numbers or buildings. When it's all said and done, nothing in this world can be taken with you when you die. -
We were not told how that money was to be used, other than what was dedicated to a specific use (building fund, evangelistic fund, etc.), and it was impressed upon us that its disposition was irrelevant to us once it had lejft our fingers. Specifically, RW told us if he decided to use all of it to buy gumballs, no one had any standing to object.
Church tithe was tithe on all money that came into the church through offerings, etc. Pastor's tithe was tithe on the pastor's personal income. Most of us worked on jobs and would tithe on that income. I never made a dime preaching myself (although I did earn $25/class teaching, pastoring was something I paid to do), but I suppose that full time ministers would pay pastor's tithe on such income, even though it originated from church funds which had already been tithed upon. Pastor's tithe was supposed to be the modern analogue to the "tithe of the tithe" that the Levites paid to the high priest. It's amazing how an organization called NEW Testament Christian Church can cling to those old laws of Moses. Theoretically (according to RW), all tithe paid in a church belonged to the pastor of that church, but I don't think RW ever let that happen in practice (unless he was the pastor in question).
Why so little earnings on teaching?
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